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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:12 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:02 pm)Tonus Wrote: If we gave up our free will and left the decision in god's hands, whether to save us or curse us, which do you think he would choose? Save us. :-)
I agree, because it makes sense. Don't you think it's better, then, for god to have made that decision for us? Centuries of mankind thinking for itself have led us down a road of hardship, misery and suffering and possibly billions of lost souls. Had god made the decision for us, we would all be saved. Isn't that the better outcome for everyone? Given a choice of making my own decision and letting god (the greatest intellect in existence, a loving and generous being who wants what is best for me) do it instead, I'd let god take over every time. Doesn't it seem mean of him to leave such a momentous decision in our hands, knowing that a very large percentage of us will get it wrong?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:14 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 1:12 pm)Tonus Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Save us. :-)
I agree, because it makes sense. Don't you think it's better, then, for god to have made that decision for us? Centuries of mankind thinking for itself have led us down a road of hardship, misery and suffering and possibly billions of lost souls. Had god made the decision for us, we would all be saved. Isn't that the better outcome for everyone? Given a choice of making my own decision and letting god (the greatest intellect in existence, a loving and generous being who wants what is best for me) do it instead, I'd let god take over every time. Doesn't it seem mean of him to leave such a momentous decision in our hands, knowing that a very large percentage of us will get it wrong?
But we wouldn't be US if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't be human beings. We would just be puppets without a mind of our own or control over our bodies or minds. I would not be me, and you would not be you.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm by Alex K.)
(June 25, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...I also mentioned the damage we have done to the environment, which you have deleted from my quote above. ;-)
You know, there is this worm which makes its living eating its way through the eyes of children until they go blind. Whose fault is that again? High fructose corn syrup? Roundup ready corn? I'm sure you'll find some scapegoat, as long as it's not your God.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:18 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Alex K Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...I also mentioned the damage we have done to the environment, which you have deleted from my quote above. ;-)
You know, there is this worm which makes its living eating its way through the eyes of children until they go blind. Whose fault is that again? High fructose corn syrup? Roundup ready corn? I'm sure you'll find some scapegoat, as long as it's not your God.
Original Sin officially, "Natural evil" found in the environment like flesh eating insects and tsunamis are punishment for human actions.
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:22 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But we wouldn't be US if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't be human beings. We would just be puppets without a mind of our own or control over our bodies or minds. I would not be me, and you would not be you. If the only benefit of free will is that it gives me the option to condemn myself to hell for an eternity, then it's not very useful. If "me being me" can only result in eternal damnation, what good is free will?
Presumably, you believe that god's rules for our behavior are for the best, and that if we do what he wants and avoid what he doesn't want, then our lives are better. Possibly even measurably improved, even if he does not intervene directly. If this is the case, then free will only serves to allow some (most, it seems) of us to miss out on salvation. Free will is all risk. Why wouldn't I be better off if I was unable to sin?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:29 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Alex K Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...I also mentioned the damage we have done to the environment, which you have deleted from my quote above. ;-)
You know, there is this worm which makes its living eating its way through the eyes of children until they go blind. Whose fault is that again? High fructose corn syrup? Roundup ready corn? I'm sure you'll find some scapegoat, as long as it's not your God.
Let's be clear.
I said 2 things:
1. God gave us free will
2. God allows nature to take its coarse
What I'm saying is the suffering in this would can be caused by one or both of those 2 things. I did not say definitely only the first one.
You used cancer as an example in your argument... I was merely showing you how I still would not rule out that man's free will has nothing to do with the existence of cancer. And if it didn't fall under free will, it would fall under nature.
Either way, I don't see how anything you're saying debunks my points. You merely just don't agree that it's ok for me to think God gave us free will or that He allows nature to take its coarse.
Fair enough.
I have already said I respect your opinion. I am open to discussion but I don't know what else you want to discuss with me here.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(June 25, 2015 at 11:22 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: If this god could be like a pocket genie who granted me unlimited wishes, sure. What exactly are the limits here?
I'm pretty sure these exist. Some even glow. But none of them can grant unlimited wishes without a change of batteries eventually.
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:31 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 1:32 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 25, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Metis Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Alex K Wrote: You know, there is this worm which makes its living eating its way through the eyes of children until they go blind. Whose fault is that again? High fructose corn syrup? Roundup ready corn? I'm sure you'll find some scapegoat, as long as it's not your God.
Original Sin officially, "Natural evil" found in the environment like flesh eating insects and tsunamis are punishment for human actions.
Yeah... that's not Church doctrine and not what I believe in. I can't speak for the people who do believe this.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 1:32 pm by Alex K.)
(June 25, 2015 at 1:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Alex K Wrote: You know, there is this worm which makes its living eating its way through the eyes of children until they go blind. Whose fault is that again? High fructose corn syrup? Roundup ready corn? I'm sure you'll find some scapegoat, as long as it's not your God.
Let's be clear.
I said 2 things:
1. God gave us free will
2. God allows nature to take its coarse
What I'm saying is the suffering in this would can be caused by one or both of those 2 things. I did not say definitely only the first one.
You used cancer as an example in your argument... I was merely showing you how I still would not rule out that man's free will has nothing to do with the existence of cancer. And if it didn't fall under free will, it would fall under nature.
Either way, I don't see how anything you're saying debunks my points. You merely just don't agree that it's ok for me to think God gave us free will or that He allows nature to take its coarse.
Fair enough.
I have already said I respect your opinion. I am open to discussion but I don't know what else you want to discuss with me here.
I'm not trying to debunk anything you say. I'm just pointing out that the God you worship is obviously evil, and you are in denial.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Do you wish God was real?
June 25, 2015 at 1:33 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2015 at 1:34 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 25, 2015 at 1:22 pm)Tonus Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But we wouldn't be US if we didn't have free will. We wouldn't be human beings. We would just be puppets without a mind of our own or control over our bodies or minds. I would not be me, and you would not be you. If the only benefit of free will is that it gives me the option to condemn myself to hell for an eternity, then it's not very useful. If "me being me" can only result in eternal damnation, what good is free will?
You have the choice not to.
(June 25, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Alex K Wrote: (June 25, 2015 at 1:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Let's be clear.
I said 2 things:
1. God gave us free will
2. God allows nature to take its coarse
What I'm saying is the suffering in this would can be caused by one or both of those 2 things. I did not say definitely only the first one.
You used cancer as an example in your argument... I was merely showing you how I still would not rule out that man's free will has nothing to do with the existence of cancer. And if it didn't fall under free will, it would fall under nature.
Either way, I don't see how anything you're saying debunks my points. You merely just don't agree that it's ok for me to think God gave us free will or that He allows nature to take its coarse.
Fair enough.
I have already said I respect your opinion. I am open to discussion but I don't know what else you want to discuss with me here.
I'm not trying to debunk anything you say. I'm just pointing out that the God you worship is obviously evil, and you are in denial.
Ok, I respect your opinion.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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