Well as they say, one is rarely convinced by the arguments while actually engaged in discussion but I hope the readers will notice the takeaway; namely that the probability a historical Jesus didn't exist is just as likely if not more than the probability that he did. In any case I stand by my OP in this thread when stating that because of the lack of good evidence for minimal facts for existence one can't even move past the first point to the resurrection. At this point we will just be talking past each other. I believe Jesus was fictive and you believe he wasn't. At any rate, this has been a pleasure Randy.

---

Thank you for the good discussion.

Quote:Not only was the term "Christian" in use before the end of the first century, but so was the proper noun "Catholic Church".

Evidence from a non jesus freak source, Randy?  You know, when you pull something out of your ass you could at least have the decency to wipe the shit off of it.

(June 24, 2015 at 9:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Consequently, this discussion will not consider whether the New Testament is reliable nor attempt to prove that it is. The conclusion that Jesus did rise from the dead will not depend upon that argument.


1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

In subsequent posts, I will present the evidence in support of each of these facts.

You lied from the get go.

At least point 2, 3, 4, and 5 purely depend on the reliability of the NT.

If the NT is not reliable:

1. there is no way to know if his disciples believed he rose from the dead.
2. Saul suddenly changed.
3. James was changed. 
4. The tomb was empty.

(June 25, 2015 at 11:25 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 11:17 am)Godschild Wrote: You think they were going to give up their good life style, for something that would have destroyed it, look at the track record of the Israelites and you will see they coveted money more than their God most of the time.

But it makes you wonder what god was offering them.  I cannot imagine that this is what happened:

GOD: Here is the choice: eternal life in heaven, or eternal torment in hell.
Person: Well, that seems like a pretty easy choice to make, so I'll...
Devil: Hey, not so fast!  I have MONEY!
GOD: LOL, that's a pretty weak offer to ma--
Person: GIMME MONEY OMG MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!
GOD: Wait, what... how???
Devil: *tosses another soul on the barbie*

There really is no emotion that would favor the devil's offer.  Even stuff that isn't practical would favor taking god's offer.  Any story where so few people make such a clear and obvious choice has to be suspect.  It goes against everything we know about ourselves as a species and as individuals.

You must not pay much attention to what's going on in the world, it's money, wealth, things, all the things Satan would have use to pay attention to, why, so we will be distracted from God. He pulled this on Eve, he told he of the great wealth of knowledge she would gain, again and again greed.

GC

(June 25, 2015 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 11:25 am)Tonus Wrote: But it makes you wonder what god was offering them.  I cannot imagine that this is what happened:

GOD: Here is the choice: eternal life in heaven, or eternal torment in hell.
Person: Well, that seems like a pretty easy choice to make, so I'll...
Devil: Hey, not so fast!  I have MONEY!
GOD: LOL, that's a pretty weak offer to ma--
Person: GIMME MONEY OMG MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!
GOD: Wait, what... how???
Devil: *tosses another soul on the barbie*

There really is no emotion that would favor the devil's offer.  Even stuff that isn't practical would favor taking god's offer.  Any story where so few people make such a clear and obvious choice has to be suspect.  It goes against everything we know about ourselves as a species and as individuals.

You must not pay much attention to what's going on in the world, it's money, wealth, things, all the things Satan would have use to pay attention to, why, so we will be distracted from God. He pulled this on Eve, he told he of the great wealth of knowledge she would gain, again and again greed.

GC

I think somehow you missed the point.  The point being that given the stakes, the Eve story is absurd.  It's like the old joke:

"Your money or your life"

long pause

"Well? Your money or your life?"

"Give me a minute, I'm thinking."

(June 25, 2015 at 11:17 am)Godschild Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 2:00 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The Sadducees were there and they didn't believe in angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, or resurrections.  If they weren't convinced maybe the events never happened.

You think they were going to give up their good life style, for something that would have destroyed it, look at the track record of the Israelites and you will see they coveted money more than their God most of the time.

GC

Perhaps they believed in money more than god most of the time.  The money being there and god, well, not so much.

(June 25, 2015 at 8:15 pm)tonechaser77 Wrote: Well as they say, one is rarely convinced by the arguments while actually engaged in discussion but I hope the readers will notice the takeaway; namely that the probability a historical Jesus didn't exist is just as likely if not more than the probability that he did. In any case I stand by my OP in this thread when stating that because of the lack of good evidence for minimal facts for existence one can't even move past the first point to the resurrection. At this point we will just be talking past each other. I believe Jesus was fictive and you believe he wasn't. At any rate, this has been a pleasure Randy.

---

Thank you for the good discussion.

Ah. You are a Jesus Myther. A discredited position that even most atheists and skeptics reject.

Here a just a few of the quotes that I have been collecting from atheists and others on the question of the historical Jesus. Since you are a fan of the Jesus Seminar, you'll love the one from its founder, John Dominic Crossan!

Atheists & Skeptics on the Historical Jesus

Bart Ehrman

“Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine. There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds — thousands? — of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.” (Quoted in an article published by the Huffington Post)

“It is a historical fact that some of Jesus’ followers came to believe that he had been raised from the dead soon after his execution. We know some of these believers by name; one of them, the apostle Paul, claims quite plainly to have seen Jesus alive after his death. Thus, for the historian, Christianity begins after the death of Jesus, not with the resurrection itself, but with the belief in the resurrection” The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. Third Edition. New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004.276).

Gerd Ludemann (Atheist)

“Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable.” (Ludemann, Gerd, The Resurrection of Christ, Pg 50.)

Michael Martin (Atheist)

“Some skeptics have maintained that the best account of the biblical and historical evidence is the theory that Jesus never existed; that is, that Jesus’ existence is a myth. Such a view is controversial and not widely held even by anti-Christian thinkers.” (Michael Martin, “Skeptical Perspectives on Jesus’ Resurrection”, in Delbert Burkett’s The Blackwell Companion to Jesus, Oxford: Blackwell, 2011), 285.)

John Dominic Crossan (The Jesus Seminar)

Jesus’ death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus.” (John Dominic Crossan, Co-founder of The Jesus Seminar Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, 145.)

Marcus Borg (The Jesus Seminar)

“An examination of the claims for and against the historicity of Jesus thus reveals that the difficulties faced by those undertaking to prove that he is not historical, in the fields both of the history of religion and the history of doctrine, and not least in the interpretation of the earliest tradition are far more numerous and profound than those which face their opponents. Seen in their totality, they must be considered as having no possible solution. Added to this, all hypotheses which have so far been put forward to the effect that Jesus never lived are in the strangest opposition to each other, both in their method of working and their interpretation of the Gospel reports, and thus merely cancel each other out. Hence we must conclude that the supposition that Jesus did exist is exceedingly likely, whereas its converse is exceedingly unlikely. This does not mean that the latter will not be proposed again from time to time, just as the romantic view of the life of Jesus is also destined for immortality. It is even able to dress itself up with certain scholarly technique, and with a little skillful manipulation can have much influence on the mass of people. But as soon as it does more than engage in noisy polemics with ‘theology’ and hazards an attempt to produce real evidence, it immediately reveals itself to be an implausible hypothesis”–Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright “A Vision of the Christian Life”, The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, San Francisco: HarperCollins, 2007), 236

Robert J. Miller (The Jesus Seminar)

“We can be certain that Jesus really existed (despite a few highly motivated skeptics who refuse to be convinced), that he was a Jewish teacher in Galilee, and that he was crucified by the Roman government around 30 CE” (Robert J. Miller, The Jesus Seminar and Its Critics, Santa Rosa: Polebridge, 1999, p. 38.)

(June 25, 2015 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 11:25 am)Tonus Wrote: But it makes you wonder what god was offering them.  I cannot imagine that this is what happened:

GOD: Here is the choice: eternal life in heaven, or eternal torment in hell.
Person: Well, that seems like a pretty easy choice to make, so I'll...
Devil: Hey, not so fast!  I have MONEY!
GOD: LOL, that's a pretty weak offer to ma--
Person: GIMME MONEY OMG MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!
GOD: Wait, what... how???
Devil: *tosses another soul on the barbie*

There really is no emotion that would favor the devil's offer.  Even stuff that isn't practical would favor taking god's offer.  Any story where so few people make such a clear and obvious choice has to be suspect.  It goes against everything we know about ourselves as a species and as individuals.

You must not pay much attention to what's going on in the world, it's money, wealth, things, all the things Satan would have use to pay attention to, why, so we will be distracted from God. He pulled this on Eve, he told he of the great wealth of knowledge she would gain, again and again greed.

GC

You mean our current world, which is literally the safest and most prosperous it's been according to just about every metric?  That world?

Shit, this Satan fellow seems to have things working pretty well.  Certainly better now than the time Jesus was supposedly kicking around.

Tell you what: you wanna live more like Jesus?  Cool.  Quit your job, sell your house, give your money away, then live in the woods with, say, a spear, sling, and net.  Decline any modern medicine, including vaccines.  Get closer to your god by dying a few decades earlier than you otherwise would.  I'll stay nice and warm with Satan.

(June 25, 2015 at 7:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: "...do for the Acts of the Apostles"? or "do to the Acts of the Apostles what the Jesus Seminar did [to] the Jesus tradition."?

Just one more hatchet job.

So, why do you think that an out of hand dismissal is any sort of a rebuttal?

(June 25, 2015 at 11:27 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(June 25, 2015 at 11:17 am)Godschild Wrote: You think they were going to give up their good life style, for something that would have destroyed it, look at the track record of the Israelites and you will see they coveted money more than their God most of the time.

GC

So do you think it's more likely that the resurrected Jesus did not bother to make an appearance to those religious leaders who had denied his claims and who allegedly set in motion the events leading to his death and resurrection, or that he did make such an appearance to them and they refused to believe their own eyes just to preserve their gig?  Neither strikes me as plausible, even in terms of fictional literature.

Nothing well satisfy an atheist when it comes to the resurrection of Christ. Jesus resurrection was to show those who would be the ministers of His life and teachings, Jesus knew the hearts of those who had Him crucified, they like most people would want to hide the fact they had just been made to look foolish. Yes I believe the ones responsible would want to continue on the path they had, these men had it made within the Roman empires rule, there positions meant easy living. They also were not looking for the Christ God had always planed, they wanted a warlord on earth, not a redeemer in heaven.

GC