(June 29, 2015 at 2:19 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 29, 2015 at 1:51 pm)pool Wrote: I'm getting a headache just by looking at this thread now.
It would be better off for me to simplify things.

This is what i think:

1*Aliens exist.
2*Superior Aliens exist.
3*Aliens have supernatural powers.
4*God is a "Supreme being" or a being that possesses supernatural powers that are beyond comprehensible for humans.
5*A Superior Alien race fit into the description of a god.
6*So Superior aliens are Gods.
7*Therefore Gods exist.

Tell me which part of my arguments are wrong and don't just say "its wrong" just because you think so,provide me with enough convincing information too.
Most of us think that the probability of a God in the universe is non-existent but believes in the existence of Aliens anyway.......


@Tonus , Thanks. :

EDIT: I gave my points in the most simplified manner assuming that you're read through the detailed description of arriving at there point already,if you haven't please read that first or my points would look unconvincing.

I'll respond to each of your poiints:

1. The likelihood of this being true are extremely high. Think of the numbers: 200 billion galaxies, each with 100+ billion stars, an unbelievably high number of planets, building blocks of life found in meteors and water in interstellar space. So yes, the probability that a high number of planets have life is great.

2. Also very high probability, given the numbers of galaxies, stars, planets, building blocks of life, etc. Have they visited earth? Very, very improbable. 

3. How did you reach this conclusion? Why would other intelligences, if they exist, be able to  suspend the laws of physics?

4. Yes, that is one of the many definitions of a god given by believers. 

5. No it doesn't. An advanced alien race would come about via the same sorts of natural processes that humans have. If their technology is advanced enough, it may appear to be magic and god like, but there is no reason to actually believe it is.

6. Nope. Just extremely advanced intelligences, that are able to use technology at a much higher level than current human technology.

Our current technology would look supernatural to humans just a couple of hundred years ago. Doesn't make it supernatural, does it?

7. Nope. Just super advanced aliens.

First of all thank you for an actual reply.
As for my counter reply:
(I'll be as descriptive as possible)

3. Imagine yourself sitting inside a dark room and suddenly a person appear in front of you,smiles at you and then suddenly vanishes.
This is a supernatural occurence right?

What basically happened here is this:
*A being is teleported in front of you.
*This being is teleported from you.

Teleportation is a theoretical possibility humans have just not yet developed any practical implementation.
See how i said "Superior Alien" race?An alien race that have tackled this problem will have the technological means of performing teleportation which would make them
supernatural with respect to us(since we are yet not familiar with the possibility of such a phenomenon and hence can't explain it,however they appear normal to themselves because they are familiar with this phenomenon.).But the fact remains that they are supernatural to US.

5. Refer to 3.

6. I said that these Superior Aliens are similar to or have similar attributes such as a God because of how they can perform "Supernatural" things with respect to us,i think supernatural is a very relative term and we should understand it.What Supernatural to X may not be Supernatural to Y because Y can understand this phenomenon.

"Our current technology would look supernatural to humans just a couple of hundred years ago. Doesn't make it supernatural, does it?" 
Of course it doesn't make it supernatural  - to US.But it IS supernatural to the humans than are from a couple of hundred years ago.

7. Refer everything above.

(June 29, 2015 at 2:34 am)pool Wrote: *Y is saying to X that god doesn't exi[s]t.

Except that that doesn't represent many, if not most, atheists, rendering it a strawman.

(June 29, 2015 at 2:34 am)pool Wrote: *X supply logical arguments to support X's theory.

Except you haven't really done that. If you want to support the "theory" -- and you haven't even shopped a theory, but we can get to that discussion another time -- if you wish to support the claim that a god of any sort exists, you'll need evidence that cannot be explained by other means.

Quote:*Y should believe X if Y cannot disapprove X's argument

No. In the absence of evidence, Y should be perfectly comfortable saying "I don't know, and neither do you."

(June 29, 2015 at 2:34 am)pool Wrote: See,i'm not shifting the burden of proof.

Well, that's not really accurate.

Also, you'll need to demonstrate the existence of extremely powerful and intelligent aliens before you can conclude "god exists".

So to respond to your response about #3. Something that is supernatural is something that is beyond scientific understanding or beyond the natural laws. Supernatural is not what is beyond current understanding. However using the scientific understanding notion of supernatural is a poor one at best. For example we have inner qualia, like what the color yellow looks like to us. These inner qualia actually do have the potential to be beyond scientific understanding. They do not however seem to have the potential to undermine the natural laws. Superior is a relative term. I am for all intents and purposes superior in functioning compared to other human beings. I am not, no matter how much I want to believe it, the god of imbeciles.

But either definition you use, teleportation is not considered supernatural. We actually have theoretical ideas about how we would do it too.

The only outright rejections that I make are that of most religions.

Example: The Bible can be refuted. It is then logical, in my opinion, to say the Christian god does not exist.

Does that mean it impossible for a god or gods to exist? Of course not.

There are an unfathomable number of discoveries to be made in the universe. I think it's reasonable to assume that we will NEVER know everything about everything, no matter how hard we try.

But that doesn't mean I go around believing in things that haven't been discovered yet.

One can certainly hypothesize, but until it can be measured and proven with predictable results, it doesn't really mean anything at all.

Supernatural is beyond nature.
Aliens are natural, and hence not supernatural.
Hence Aliens are not gods.

If we simply defined anything we do not understand as supernatural, we'd end up with god-of-the-gaps. That is why science studies things and tries to understand them and not attach a supernatural label to everything.

(June 29, 2015 at 2:01 pm)pool Wrote: Back to Likelihood.I was successful in bending the argument in such a way that i don't really have to prove the Probability of "God" in the universe,i just have to point out the likelihood of "Aliens" existence in this universe and there are whole organisations dedicated to finding this life form(s).

Did you find any fault in my points?

Not if you want to argue for the existence of advanced races of aliens.  Entirely possible.  If that is what you came here to do, you win!  Or did you want to make a connection to what anyone else in the world calls a god? You certainly have not done that at all. (Not that we expected you to.

(June 29, 2015 at 2:51 pm)Aristocatt Wrote: So to respond to your response about #3.  Something that is supernatural is something that is beyond scientific understanding or beyond the natural laws.  Supernatural is not what is beyond current understanding.  However using the scientific understanding notion of supernatural is a poor one at best.  For example we have inner qualia, like what the color yellow looks like to use.  These inner qualia actually do have the potential to be beyond scientific understanding.  They do not however seem to have the potential to undermine the natural laws.  Superior is a relative term.  I am for all intents and purposes superior in functioning than some human beings.  I am not, no matter how much I want to believe it, the god of imbeciles.

But either definition you use, teleportation is not considered supernatural.  We actually have theoretical ideas about how we would do it too.

A quick google search of the definition of Supernatural got me this:

attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

So according to me,to classify an occurence as a supernatural occurence it should be
*Beyond the scientific understanding

And i completely agree with this.
You said that teleportation is a completely natural phenomenon as we have theoretical evidence that suggests the possibility of teleportation.

I think this statement of your's is faulty, 
The theoretical aspect of teleportation is completely natural to us.
The practical aspect of teleportation is supernatural to us.

BUT if a person/being were to randomly teleport across the street,of course we would not view it as supernatural(Because now we know that the practical implementation of a theoretical summary of teleportation IS possible).
Its tricky because we consider something as supernatural when we believe it will not happen holding the CURRENT scientific understanding as evidence.
So as long as someone doesn't randomly teleport across the street(Or they implement a practical implementation of the process),teleportation is supernatural but the moment this phenomenon actually does happen it is natural.
Thousands of years ago it was Supernatural for a person to instantly communicate with another person on the other end of the world.
Today it is not supernatural it is natural.
The labeling of something as Supernatural or natural depends upon our current scientific understanding.This is what i think.
Furthermore i didn't use teleportation in the sense that it is the ONLY phenomenon that would classify as supernatural.I used ideas like teleportation or invisibility because there are already theoretical proofs that they are possible.
I'd definetly sound like a lunatic if i said that something without theoretical proof is possible to others,that's why.

(June 29, 2015 at 2:30 pm)Alex K Wrote:

Got your god right here, pool-boy.

You are misunderstanding what it means for something to be beyond scientific understanding, and what it means for something to be beyond current scientific understanding. If airplanes were around when Romans were conquering the known world, they would not have been supernatural then, just as they are not supernatural now.