(July 6, 2015 at 12:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I believe in free will of actions. But certain things like emotions or beliefs cannot be controlled. If I lost a loved one tomorrow, I would have no control over my feelings of grief. An atheist (at least for the most part, as I have heard) has no control over the fact that he simply just doesn't believe that God is real. He can come to this undeniable conclusion either by merely a gut feeling or by thoroughly informing himself... or other, I'm sure.  

I have respect for anyone who thoroughly informs themselves in regards to any belief.

Right, I agree with you. But saying people have no control seems like a misnomer to me. If they are in control of their actions, and their actions are what leads them to their feelings/emotions/beliefs, then how can you say people have no control? *

Someone from the Westboro baptist church may have no control over the fact they were indoctrinated from birth, but they are in control of their subsequent actions. They can choose whether or not to pursue further knowledge, or just go along with what they've been told. I think this is true for anyone. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how easy it is, granted, someone indoctrinated from birth is less likely to scrutinize their beliefs, but it doesn't mean for one second they are not in control.

*Just to expand on the example you gave, you said someone would have no control over their feelings of grief if a loved one died. That much is true, however, you're not in direct control of your loved ones. If you were, you'd presumably change things to ensure they didn't die. These are things outside your control. Deciding whether or not to scrutinize beliefs however, are well within your control.

(July 6, 2015 at 11:51 am)Pyrrho Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 11:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Eh, sorry but I really don't think this has anything to do with it. :

Catholics identify with an organization that did those things, and only stopped doing them because secular authorities forced them to stop.  That is why the Inquisition ended in some countries before it ended in others; if it had been ended as a matter of church policy, it would have stopped everywhere all at once.  The organization has not been changed to get rid of such things.  

(July 6, 2015 at 11:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: These are incidents that happened centuries ago by people who are long dead. The Catholic Church is a huge promoter of life, even taking a stand against the death penalty for all criminals world wide. I don't think any of my atheist friends fear that I would either a. torture/kill them, or b. support the torture/killing of them. Lol.

I did not say that they thought you were going to torture or kill them.  The secular authorities will not allow you to do that with impunity.  But it does illustrate the level of hatred that Catholics have had for certain kinds of ideas, and you may (or may not) have that level of hatred yourself.  The fact that you identify with an organization with such a brutal past does not encourage people to tell you things.

(July 6, 2015 at 11:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think they just don't feel comfortable talking about these things with a strong theist (whether Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim, or whatever), for fear of getting into arguments, offending each other, getting in awkward situations, etc. Friends generally like to get along and don't like to get into deep topics with very opposing views. I can understand that, but still find it unfortunate.

I stated that in the part of my post that you omitted in your quote.

Ok, I will ask them then if they see me in that sort of way and if this makes them feel uneasy about talking to me. ;-)

And as for the bolded, yes, I think that's all it is.

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(July 6, 2015 at 12:07 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 12:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I believe in free will of actions. But certain things like emotions or beliefs cannot be controlled. If I lost a loved one tomorrow, I would have no control over my feelings of grief. An atheist (at least for the most part, as I have heard) has no control over the fact that he simply just doesn't believe that God is real. He can come to this undeniable conclusion either by merely a gut feeling or by thoroughly informing himself... or other, I'm sure.  

I have respect for anyone who thoroughly informs themselves in regards to any belief.

Right, I agree with you. But saying people have no control seems like a misnomer to me. If they are in control of their actions, and their actions are what leads them to their feelings/emotions/beliefs, then how can you say people have no control?

Someone from the Westboro baptist church may have no control over the fact they were indoctrinated from birth, but they are in control of their subsequent actions. They can choose whether or not to pursue further knowledge, or just go along with what they've been told. I think this is true for anyone. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how easy it is, granted, someone indoctrinated from birth is less likely to scrutinize their beliefs, but it doesn't mean for one second they are not in control.

I have had atheists tell me that they cannot control their disbelief in something. That's what I was going by.

Some theists can be very intelligent.

But what I have found is that they tend to abuse the intelligence by finding complex arguments that allow them to still believe despite the evidence.

This makes me think less of their ability to rationalise.

(July 6, 2015 at 12:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have had atheists tell me that they cannot control their disbelief in something. That's what I was going by.

Okay, let me rephrase it.

If you conduct an investigation, you're in control of how it's done right? Maybe not outside factors that you can't control (depending on the investigation), or whatever it is you're investigating in and of itself, but how you conduct the investigation, that is what you're in control of.

The result of the investigation is going to be influenced by 1. whether you do the investigation in the first place and 2. how you go about it. So in some ways, you're right, if you do the investigation correctly, you'll presumably come to the right conclusion, but you are in control of getting there in the first place.

With reference to what people believe in god, I think it's absurd to say that they have no control over what they believe. That's like saying someone has no control over the outcome of any particular experiment. That's demonstrably not true. People are in control of what they investigate, this in turn has some impact on the result, which is to say, what they believe at the end of the investigation.

(July 6, 2015 at 12:23 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 12:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have had atheists tell me that they cannot control their disbelief in something. That's what I was going by.

Okay, let me rephrase it.

If you conduct an investigation, you're in control of how it's done right? Maybe not outside factors that you can't control (depending on the investigation), or whatever it is you're investigating in and of itself, but how you conduct the investigation, that is what you're in control of.

The result of the investigation is going to be influenced by 1. whether you do the investigation in the first place and 2. how you go about it. So in some ways, you're right, if you do the investigation correctly, you'll presumably come to the right conclusion, but you are in control of getting there in the first place.

With reference to what people believe in god, I think it's absurd to say that they have no control over what they believe. That's like saying someone has no control over the outcome of any particular experiment. That's demonstrably not true. People are in control of what they investigate, this in turn has some impact on the result, which is to say, what they believe at the end of the investigation.

If a person tells me they do not believe in God and nothing could ever change their mind, even though they never investigated, I will take their word for it. I will believe that they just don't think God is real, and that nothing can change that, and it just is what it is. Are you saying then that these people are being dishonest?

(July 5, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When you learn that a particular person is a theist, does that fact alone make you think any less of them? Perhaps less intelligent, or less rational, or less educated, or less good, etc?

If so, how and why?

Thanks!

No, not at all. Same minds, different beliefs, that's all it is. I always try to see the best in people even if I don't like or agree with what they're saying, theist and atheist alike, because basically behind every avatar there is a person with feelings trying to do their best in life.

Adults are often capable of understanding the difference between being mistaken, Catholic...and being dishonest. It's not particularly nuanced or difficult to decipher. Don't you think?

I doubt many atheists would say nothing would ever change their mind! But maybe some would. I don't have much respect for the intellectual integrity of someone who states they would never change their mind, given appropriate evidence, about any subject.

Unfortunately, a lot of theists do play this card. I've barely heard any atheists doing so.

(July 6, 2015 at 12:44 pm)emjay Wrote:

(July 5, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When you learn that a particular person is a theist, does that fact alone make you think any less of them? Perhaps less intelligent, or less rational, or less educated, or less good, etc?

If so, how and why?

Thanks!

No, not at all. Same minds, different beliefs, that's all it is. I always try to see the best in people even if I don't like or agree with what they're saying, theist and atheist alike, because basically behind every avatar there is a person with feelings trying to do their best in life.

Hey, this is great!

9,000,000,000 kudos to this!

(July 6, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If a person tells me they do not believe in God and nothing could ever change their mind, even though they never investigated, I will take their word for it. I will believe that they just don't think God is real, and that nothing can change that, and it just is what it is. Are you saying then that these people are being dishonest?

No. Precisely the opposite. However, what they choose to tell themselves, and you, has no bearing on my point.