"morals come from somewhere"

So before the Bible, we had no morals?

There were many societies that flourished before the alleged life of Jesus. These same societies were flourishing while the Old Testament stories were still nothing but oral traditions being passed amongst the Jews to, as Lewis Black put it, distract themselves from the fact that they had no air conditioning.

Point being that all these humans managed to build civilizations of varying degrees of success without the Bible as we know it...so I agree - morals had to come from somewhere, but it would seem to me that we all have an inborn sense of being "good" to someone in order to get what we want in return, otherwise those humans wouldn't have...I don't know...built the pyramids (Egyptian, Babylonian, and otherwise)...constructed Stonehenge... yada yada.

A good friend of mine once said "Our ancestors helped each other and advanced society, while our competitors flung crap at one another."

Of course, the reverse is true - we don't need to use "God" to hold ourselves accountable. If I'm mean to someone, I don't think "God's going to smote me!!" I actually feel bad because I was mean to a person who probably didn't deserve it and whose experiences and talents I will probably no longer be able to draw from. If I cared about that person, there's a chance they will leave me lonely. We also have a justice system that hold us accountable if we steal from another person or injure/kill them. Some like to claim that it's based on the Bible, but there were plenty of law systems set down before the bible was with similar codes. If I kill someone, the state and that person's family hold me accountable.

Although I don't understand how porn and 'living it up' relates to not being accountable. I should think if you totally 'live it up' you're suddenly accountable to yourself if you get an STD. Watching porn hurts no one except maybe your hard drive.

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Also, what did he mean by "when hard times hit"? Is he suggesting that one needs Church to depend on for support if they're suddenly out of a job? Because we don't have governmental programs in place or because atheists don't give?

Well, I have severed all ties from this extremist individual-my former Pastor. When asked about my atheism via email, I wrote this as a reply:

"I simply cannot worship a "god" who consented to the killing of innocent Egyptian firstborn children for the supposed sins of the parents. That's just the beginning, I think that the idea that anyone would have to be nailed to a cross and suffer through flogging and crucifixion equally disgusting. You can argue about all that, but it's my decision-I am done with Christianity, the Bible, and church for good."

To which he replied:

"Dave,

well, I'm sorry to hear that for you. You know the truth and you are actually falling prey to the enemy pushing you away from faith and towards reason and rational thinking. That context is dangerous and full of pride as one tries to prove their Creator does not exist. My encouragement to you is to pursue all of the worldliness and arguments with all the passion you have. After doing so, when you crave fulfillment that lasts, turn back to CHrist. As Paul says in Galatians 3, it seems that someone has bewitched you or cut in on your stride. Its sad to see because now you are solely responsible for your strength, dealing with your anxiety, your family, your worries, etc. And I'll remind you of Heb 6:1-5, don't play this cat and mouse game with God. Time will eventually run out.

I still love you as a good friend and hope to hear from you next week. Blessings


HA! Loves me?! Wants to be my FRIEND?! So I replied back: "I feel sorry for you if all you have to rely on for your belief system is a bunch of nonsensical threats from a non-existent deity. There is no devil or no god. As for my strength, it is, and always has been, my own. And there is no fulfillment that lasts from following the Bible. So, if you want to "hear from me:" next week in order to expunge more of this garbage, forget it. Our friendship is over, as far as I am concerned. Don't bother emailing me or calling me, I will NOT reply."

What an extremist bunch of CRAP he wrote to me!! I have since written that I want him out of my life for good, and I have dropped him as a friend on Facebook and prohibited him from sending me any more crap.
What's perhaps even sadder, is that this pastor get's paid over $60,000/year to preach evil like that in his email to me. And keep in mind that what my former pastor believes IS what most mainstream evangelical churches, and probably catholic, believe.

(September 15, 2010 at 2:02 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Ok, so we just talked on the phone, but he said that why not just look at porn magazines, why not just "live it up", because you're not accountable to anyone?? How do I answer that objection to my Atheism?? He also said, where are you going to go when "your hear melts down", ie, hard times hit? Finally, he said that morals come from somewhere, and that we are getting worse rather then better, as human beings-presumably without Christianity.

I really would like to know how to answer him.

It seems your pastor has unwittingly admitted that HE himself is a sorry louse too spineless to form and follow an independent morality of his own, that HE would live a wasted life of wanton dissipation unless he imagines himself to be rigidly supervised and spanked by a totalitarian mental overlord in the sky, and HE can not possibly be counted on when hard time hits because his own head will melt down, and HE wishes to ease HIS own pitiful self loathing by attributing to everyone he could lay his biblical filth on, including you, with the same contemptible lack of character that characterize him.

It seems that much of Christianity caters to similar sorry louses who can't imagine the "chance driven" and "godless" natural world is in fact filled by people much better than they are.

Quote:that what my former pastor believes IS what most mainstream evangelical churches, and probably catholic, believe.

Catholics seem to believe that its okay to butt-fuck children so they really are a bunch of despicable bastards.

But protestants aren't very far behind them in the #1 Scumbag Competition.

You're free. Congratulations.

(October 10, 2010 at 12:09 am)Chuck Wrote:

(September 15, 2010 at 2:02 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Ok, so we just talked on the phone, but he said that why not just look at porn magazines, why not just "live it up", because you're not accountable to anyone?? How do I answer that objection to my Atheism?? He also said, where are you going to go when "your hear melts down", ie, hard times hit? Finally, he said that morals come from somewhere, and that we are getting worse rather then better, as human beings-presumably without Christianity.

I really would like to know how to answer him.

It seems your pastor has unwittingly admitted that HE himself is a sorry louse too spineless to form and follow an independent morality of his own, that HE would live a wasted life of wanton dissipation unless he imagines himself to be rigidly supervised and spanked by a totalitarian mental overlord in the sky, and HE can not possibly be counted on when hard time hits because his own head will melt down, and HE wishes to ease HIS own pitiful self loathing by attributing to everyone he could lay his biblical filth on, including you, with the same contemptible lack of character that characterize him.

It seems that much of Christianity caters to similar sorry louses who can't imagine the "chance driven" and "godless" natural world is in fact filled by people much better than they are.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why he has no place in my life anymore.

I can't believe the idiot would write this:

(October 9, 2010 at 10:03 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: You know the truth and you are actually falling prey to the enemy pushing you away from faith and towards reason and rational thinking.

He thinks it's a BAD thing to be pushed "towards reason and rational thinking"? WOW! So he admits that he doesn't want people to use their brains and intellect? Incredible!


The moron also demonstrates that he has no concept of atheism when he writes this:

Quote:That context is dangerous and full of pride as one tries to prove their Creator does not exist.

WRONG! Atheists do not try to prove the non-existence of "God". This is impossible. Atheists simply state that there is no evidence to support the claim that a deity exists. As usual, these twerps want to shift the burden of proof. Sorry, it's YOUR responsibility to support your claim. It is NOT my responsibility to disprove your claim!

I like the Christopher Hitchens quote, "That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

(September 15, 2010 at 2:02 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: Ok, so we just talked on the phone, but he said that why not just look at porn magazines, why not just "live it up", because you're not accountable to anyone?? How do I answer that objection to my Atheism?? He also said, where are you going to go when "your hear melts down", ie, hard times hit? Finally, he said that morals come from somewhere, and that we are getting worse rather then better, as human beings-presumably without Christianity.

I really would like to know how to answer him.

Remind him that we have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn’t make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery -- and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture, like the golden rule, can be valued for its ethical wisdom without requiring us to believe that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.

(October 10, 2010 at 3:03 pm)Thor Wrote: I can't believe the idiot would write this:

(October 9, 2010 at 10:03 pm)dave4shmups Wrote: You know the truth and you are actually falling prey to the enemy pushing you away from faith and towards reason and rational thinking.

He thinks it's a BAD thing to be pushed "towards reason and rational thinking"? WOW! So he admits that he doesn't want people to use their brains and intellect? Incredible!


The moron also demonstrates that he has no concept of atheism when he writes this:

Quote:That context is dangerous and full of pride as one tries to prove their Creator does not exist.

WRONG! Atheists do not try to prove the non-existence of "God". This is impossible. Atheists simply state that there is no evidence to support the claim that a deity exists. As usual, these twerps want to shift the burden of proof. Sorry, it's YOUR responsibility to support your claim. It is NOT my responsibility to disprove your claim!

I like the Christopher Hitchens quote, "That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

Yep. He is a certifiable idiot, who doesn't want people to use their heads. And I DO believe we've made moral progress, and scientific progress, which he denies. Sure, there's murder, rape, and the like, but there always has been.

Quote:Why not just live it up? I'm all about self-controlled hedonism (yay porno!), I have one life to live

Are you sure?

Dave4shumps, when I was contemplating Atheism I had only two paths:
1. Live it up! Drink, have sex, who cares? Im no longer accontable to some god

2. Well, I care about my health, so I wont drink and I do want to find that special girl, without getting STIs, so I wont sleep around and I like having a day off, so I will keep the sabbath.

Those are really your two options. However, if I was to go with number 2 I would of gone back to God, as I did anyways.

(October 15, 2010 at 8:10 am)solja247 Wrote:

Quote:Why not just live it up? I'm all about self-controlled hedonism (yay porno!), I have one life to live

Are you sure?

Dave4shumps, when I was contemplating Atheism I had only two paths:
1. Live it up! Drink, have sex, who cares? Im no longer accontable to some god

2. Well, I care about my health, so I wont drink and I do want to find that special girl, without getting STIs, so I wont sleep around and I like having a day off, so I will keep the sabbath.

Those are really your two options. However, if I was to go with number 2 I would of gone back to God, as I did anyways.

There are ways to do all those things without putting their credit on an invisible man. "Self-controlled" was the key term there. I drink and have sex whenever possible, sometimes both at the same time. I have pretty damn good health besides asthma, which had nothing to do with either, and do not have, nor have ever had, an STD. I don't need encouragement from God to not work and sit on the couch in my underwear watching TV on the weekend either, although saying "God told me to do it" sure does produce interesting results when my roommate asks what the hell I'm doing.