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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 11, 2015 at 9:30 pm
(This post was last modified: July 11, 2015 at 9:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Pliny is a terrible reference, he should have known all about the christians, if we're to believe their stories - and yet he doesn't...further, he doesn't act in the manner that we are led to believe (again by christians) the roman state would act confronted with their christianity. If you want Pliny, you'll have to abandon parts of your jesus story. Be my guest. The reliability of Pliny is directly proportionate to the unreliability of christian sources. Fiddle with that slider and tell me when you find a comfy balance?
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 11, 2015 at 9:47 pm
Pliny probably wrote "Chrestians" just like Tacitus did. Some helpful scribe changed it later.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 4:51 am
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 5:20 am by downbeatplumb.
Edit Reason: Missed out a vital word.
)
(July 11, 2015 at 12:32 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 11, 2015 at 12:22 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Why is it lazy?
Demonstrated in post #651. That wasn't an answer just a repetition of not wanting to think things could be other than what you believe.
As you can see from my own post I happen to think that there may have been a historical jesus and gave my reason, but you decided to ignore that bit.
And let me remind you I have a much evidence for my stance as you have for yours i.e. zero.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 5:14 am
I'm looking forward to Randy explaining the Zombie Apocalypse of Saints.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 5:18 am
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 5:19 am by robvalue.)
I just saw one walk past! He's in a bit of a state...
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 5:50 am
(July 12, 2015 at 5:14 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: I'm looking forward to Randy explaining the Zombie Apocalypse of Saints.
Oh well that's simple. Every lich needs an army of the undead.
![[Image: wpid-Photo-Oct-26-2013-1127-PM.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=wp.production.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fexploringourmatrix%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F10%2Fwpid-Photo-Oct-26-2013-1127-PM.jpg)
![[Image: bbb59Ce.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com%2Fbbb59Ce.gif)
(September 17, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: I make change in the coin tendered. If you want courteous treatment, behave courteously. Preaching at me and calling me immoral is not courteous behavior.
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 7:25 am
(July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: (July 11, 2015 at 7:33 pm)pocaracas Wrote: You know, Randy... This women thing really gets to me.
Learn about Livia, Augustus' wife.
Learn about Nefertiti and Cleopatra, of Egypt.
How could such women become as great as they have, if the culture was so against them as you wish to depict it?
Did I make this up?
"Sooner let the words of the Law be burn than delivered to women." (Talmud, Sotah 19a)
"The world cannot exist without males and without females--happy is he whose children are males, and woe to him whose children are females." (Talmud, Kiddushin 82b)
"Any evidence which a woman [gives] is not valid (to offer), also they are not valid to offer. This is equivalent to saying that one who Rabbinically accounted a robber is qualified to give the same evidence a a woman." (Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 1.8)
Touche, sir!
But the law need not correspond to common practice.
(July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: "But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense." (Luke 24:11) Is that it?
Luke, the companion of Paul? Kind of a late testimonial attribution.... why do we keep coming to this?!
(July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: "Whereas men and women had hitherto always sat together, Augustus confined women to the back rows even at gladitorial shows: the only ones exempt from this were the Vestal Virgins, for whom separate accommodation was provided, facing the praetor's tribunal. No women at all were allowed to witness the athletic contests; indeed, when the audience clamored at the Games for a special boxing match to celebrate his appointment as Chief Priest, Augustus postponed this until early the next morning and issued a proclamation to the effect that it was the Chief Priest's desire that women should not attend the theatre before ten o'clock." (Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, Augustus 44).
Given the low view of women shared by many first-century Jews and Gentiles, it seems unlikely that the gospel authors would put the crucial testimony about the resurrection of Jesus into the mouths of women who simply would not be believed by many who heard of these reports.
Segregation in Rome is not the same as the mistrust found in Israel.
So... if the testimony came from women... why trust it? The obvious conclusion is: There is no reliable testimony of an empty tomb. 
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 7:25 am)pocaracas Wrote: (July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Did I make this up?
"Sooner let the words of the Law be burn than delivered to women." (Talmud, Sotah 19a)
"The world cannot exist without males and without females--happy is he whose children are males, and woe to him whose children are females." (Talmud, Kiddushin 82b)
"Any evidence which a woman [gives] is not valid (to offer), also they are not valid to offer. This is equivalent to saying that one who Rabbinically accounted a robber is qualified to give the same evidence a a woman." (Talmud, Rosh Hashannah 1.8)
Touche, sir!
But the law need not correspond to common practice.
Thank you. It's nice to get some recognition from the Other Side once in awhile when it is due.
(July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Quote:"But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense." (Luke 24:11)
Is that it?
Luke, the companion of Paul? Kind of a late testimonial attribution.... why do we keep coming to this?!
I just threw that in as a bonus. It does show that not even the disciples themselves were quick to believe the women, though.
(July 11, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Quote:"Whereas men and women had hitherto always sat together, Augustus confined women to the back rows even at gladitorial shows: the only ones exempt from this were the Vestal Virgins, for whom separate accommodation was provided, facing the praetor's tribunal. No women at all were allowed to witness the athletic contests; indeed, when the audience clamored at the Games for a special boxing match to celebrate his appointment as Chief Priest, Augustus postponed this until early the next morning and issued a proclamation to the effect that it was the Chief Priest's desire that women should not attend the theatre before ten o'clock." (Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, Augustus 44).
Given the low view of women shared by many first-century Jews and Gentiles, it seems unlikely that the gospel authors would put the crucial testimony about the resurrection of Jesus into the mouths of women who simply would not be believed by many who heard of these reports.
Segregation in Rome is not the same as the mistrust found in Israel.
![[Image: hmmm.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=forums.catholic.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fani%2Fhmmm.gif)
Quote:So... if the testimony came from women... why trust it? The obvious conclusion is: There is no reliable testimony of an empty tomb.
He's on the edge...closer...he's wavering...closer...will he fall....look into my eyes, poca...you're getting sleepy... ![[Image: hypno.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=forums.catholic.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fani%2Fhypno.gif)
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 13, 2015 at 2:32 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 2:34 am by Kaninchen.)
So, how's the shooting fish in a barrel going, Randy?
I think you better put me on ignore from the start.
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
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RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
July 13, 2015 at 4:12 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 4:31 am by robvalue.)
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