(July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 12, 2015 at 7:25 am)pocaracas Wrote: Touche, sir!
But the law need not correspond to common practice.

Thank you. It's nice to get some recognition from the Other Side once in awhile when it is due.

I don't claim to know everything and these little nuggets of information are always welcome to correct my opinion of those times of old.

(July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

pocaracas Wrote:Is that it?
Luke, the companion of Paul? Kind of a late testimonial attribution.... why do we keep coming to this?!

I just threw that in as a bonus. It does show that not even the disciples themselves were quick to believe the women, though.

But this account comes to us from Luke, the companion of Paul, the guy who had no physical contact whatsoever with any Jesus... nor did he consider any second hand witness accounts. Although Luke may have considered such accounts, they would have come to him decades after the fact.
Even if Luke was just penning actual accounts, who's to say those accounts were serious? who's to say those accounts were not lies?

(July 12, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

pocaracas Wrote:So... if the testimony came from women... why trust it? The obvious conclusion is: There is no reliable testimony of an empty tomb.

He's on the edge...closer...he's wavering...closer...will he fall....look into my eyes, poca...you're getting sleepy...

AHAHAHAHA! Don't quit your day-job, your hypnotics capabilities are appalling.

(July 13, 2015 at 4:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: But this account comes to us from Luke, the companion of Paul, the guy who had no physical contact whatsoever with any Jesus... nor did he consider any second hand witness accounts. Although Luke may have considered such accounts, they would have come to him decades after the fact.
Even if Luke was just penning actual accounts, who's to say those accounts were serious? who's to say those accounts were not lies?

Why do think this to be the case regarding Luke?

Luke is aware of "many accounts" of Jesus. What were they?

Mark? Q? M? L? Others that have been lost? Remember, he says "many" not a couple or a few.

Second, Luke says that he has carefully investigated everything. How would that be done? By talking to Paul only? Or by interviewing lots of people during the course of his travels with Paul?

For example, Luke provides a LOT of detail in the first couple of chapters that only Mary could have known. Do you think maybe Luke talked to her in person?

(July 13, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 4:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: But this account comes to us from Luke, the companion of Paul, the guy who had no physical contact whatsoever with any Jesus... nor did he consider any second hand witness accounts. Although Luke may have considered such accounts, they would have come to him decades after the fact.
Even if Luke was just penning actual accounts, who's to say those accounts were serious? who's to say those accounts were not lies?

Why do think this to be the case regarding Luke?

Luke is aware of "many accounts" of Jesus. What were they?

Mark? Q? M? L? Others that have been lost? Remember, he says "many" not a couple or a few.

Second, Luke says that he has carefully investigated everything. How would that be done? By talking to Paul only? Or by interviewing lots of people during the course of his travels with Paul?

For example, Luke provides a LOT of detail in the first couple of chapters that only Mary could have known. Do you think maybe Luke talked to her in person?

Considering that the story of Jesus was a folk tale most likely, it stands to reason that lots of people would know all the details that Mary's character knows because lots of people would know some or all of the details of this story. It wouldn't be odd or out of place for people to know intimate details of the Christ family any more than it would be odd or out of place for people to know intimate details about the Skywalker family.

(July 13, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 13, 2015 at 4:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: But this account comes to us from Luke, the companion of Paul, the guy who had no physical contact whatsoever with any Jesus... nor did he consider any second hand witness accounts. Although Luke may have considered such accounts, they would have come to him decades after the fact.
Even if Luke was just penning actual accounts, who's to say those accounts were serious? who's to say those accounts were not lies?

Why do think this to be the case regarding Luke?

Because reality is devoid of magic.

(July 13, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Luke is aware of "many accounts" of Jesus. What were they?

Mark? Q? M? L? Others that have been lost? Remember, he says "many" not a couple or a few.

I don't know... you're the one who has the whole NT memorized. You tell me.
People used to tell stories by the fire.... used to gather in buildings to tell each other such stories as well...
Remember, there was no TV, nor even radio, back then... people had to entertain themselves, somehow... and telling stories was ubiquitous... If those stories lined up with reality is another story...

(July 13, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Second, Luke says that he has carefully investigated everything. How would that be done? By talking to Paul only? Or by interviewing lots of people during the course of his travels with Paul?

It's amazing the number of ancient authors who carefully investigated everything. In a day and age where information travels slower than a snail, checking for past facts would be a hopeless endeavor... and yet, they managed to get carefully researched story where all details match neatly with reality!
Amazing! O.o

(July 13, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: For example, Luke provides a LOT of detail in the first couple of chapters that only Mary could have known. Do you think maybe Luke talked to her in person?

Here's George Bush playing Mahjongg:


Clearly, the author of this particular manga had access to Bush's very private Mahjongg session to know exactly which hand he had to win that match. Maybe he had access to one of the other 3 players, then...


Dammit! Those are Pope Benedict, King Jong Il and Putin with him!!


How to say this politely... Occam's Razor implies that he made stuff up.

Maybe we should test how easy it is to make stuff up.

Can anyone make stuff up about a real person?

David Cameron once battled a thousand lizard warriors, armed only with a teacake and a VCR instruction manual.

Wow, that was quite easy. David Cameron is a real person. So does that make what I just made up about him true?

No? Well, what if I reeled off a bunch of towns that I live by, and other easily obtainable information first? Would it be true then? What if I got my mates to write it down too? How about in 2000 years?

To be fair, maybe it wasn't Luke, the writer, who made stuff up... but someone most likely did and he wrote that.

I thought the Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter analogy was a pretty good one, and all Randy did was sip his coffee and fail to respond, so he's probably gonna gloss over this one, guys. Selective reading is, like, a super-power for the Catholics around here, I've noticed. Then again, I guess it would have to be after all that cherry-picking.

I'm pretty sure Matthew was making up his own stuff to add to the made up stuff

Yup, the Abe Lincoln analogy is perfect. There is no counter to it, from someone who is desperately trying to conflate a normal person and a magical person.

I would have thought by now Randy would realize this trick doesn't work on us, just like it didn't work when he joined. Maybe one day he'll reflect enough to consider that the problem could actually be the evidence, rather than atheists using god-like denial powers.

(July 13, 2015 at 9:09 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: I thought the Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter analogy was a pretty good one, and all Randy did was sip his coffee and fail to respond, so he's probably gonna gloss over this one, guys. Selective reading is, like, a super-power for the Catholics around here, I've noticed. Then again, I guess it would have to be after all that cherry-picking.

Come on... everyone knows that's a recent Hollywood movie.
World leaders playing Mahjong, on the other hand, now that's completely new to Randy (and maybe most of you).
And, who knows?... if we use his tactic of just repeating the same argument, but with slight differences, maybe he'll start seeing the merit in the argument...
(I know it's the same hope that he has we'll ever see the merit of his own argument(s))

(July 13, 2015 at 9:14 am)pocaracas Wrote: Come on... everyone knows that's a recent Hollywood movie.
World leaders playing Mahjong, on the other hand, now that's completely new to Randy (and maybe most of you).
And, who knows?... if we use his tactic of just repeating the same argument, but with slight differences, maybe he'll start seeing the merit in the argument...
(I know it's the same hope that he has we'll ever see the merit of his own argument(s))

Hey, man, that movie is based on a book, and that book is the TRUTH, ok? I know this because the vampires revealed it to me themselves with their telepathy.

And I think he does have that hope, poca...and I don't think it could be taken from him by anything in the wide fucking world. Anything.