(July 17, 2015 at 9:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote:

(July 17, 2015 at 3:17 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: Godliness is only a trend. I have never been one to follow trends. Trends are stupid.

Hope I answered your questions.

Wow. A trend. That seems a little backwards. Since conscious thought man has attempted to express his Devine connection to all else.

You being oblivious to this connection is the trend. It is due to the disconnect brought on by society, empirical method as the only law, and the fact that we are manipulated at our core from childhood to be oblivious to the fact that you can learn through experience rather than only academics which actually cripple the ability or even the understanding that one can learn through many avenues.

What I am trying to say is that we can tell what us real to us based on our bodies emotional reaction to certain thought. The disconnect between productive thought and emotion has caused the fad of needless over calculations which only confuse people and lead them into further question.

Some advice, if I may. When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.

It's the same when you are stupid.

(July 17, 2015 at 9:14 am)Cato Wrote:

(July 17, 2015 at 9:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: Wow. A trend. That seems a little backwards. Since conscious thought man has attempted to express his Devine connection to all else.

You being oblivious to this connection is the trend. It is due to the disconnect brought on by society, empirical method as the only law, and the fact that we are manipulated at our core from childhood to be oblivious to the fact that you can learn through experience rather than only academics which actually cripple the ability or even the understanding that one can learn through many avenues.

What I am trying to say is that we can tell what us real to us based on our bodies emotional reaction to certain thought. The disconnect between productive thought and emotion has caused the fad of needless over calculations which only confuse people and lead them into further question.

So your argument goes something like this; remain ignorant and enjoy God. Got it.

Not at all. Firstly you will never find truth when clouded by anger, fear, hatred, or some misplaced peer acceptance. Secondly science is a tool to attain knowledge. Math is the only true science. The rest is still a best guess. However many consider it unwaivering fact. This is a grand flaw. Thought is wonderful and a gift. It is related to our unparalleled opportunity for good and bad. With that being said much thought can unknowingly lead one to false conclusions due to the very nature of evil and humans.

We in America are ussualy raised in Christianity. It's all around us. So at the same time you believe in santa clause, the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny you also are taught to believe in the Christian god. As a child I had little choice in the matter. If i had grown up in a Hindu place I would likely have been Hindu, or in a Budhist place, Muslum place and so on.

The difference between others and my self was/is that i actually wanted to follow in the way that Jesus taught. I tried. What i found very quickly was that others around me were only mouthing the words instead of doing the deed of being Christian.

A small percentage of people would actually try to be what was considered a true Christian but obviously not nearly enough to prove that it was a divine spirit that made them be better people.

This seems to be true of most faiths. There are the few individuals that are attempting to be enlightened and then there is the vast majority that only use the faith as a way to be a part of a group.

What would convince me is that if suddenly most Christians started actually acting Christian. Then It would show me that there was some divine source that really had the power to change people's way of thinking.

As it is no set of faiths can do anything unless the individual wants it to. So to me the real power of change is in the mere human that only believes they can't do it on their own. Power to the people.

(July 17, 2015 at 9:20 am)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(July 17, 2015 at 9:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: Wow. A trend. That seems a little backwards. Since conscious thought man has attempted to express his Devine connection to all else.

You being oblivious to this connection is the trend. It is due to the disconnect brought on by society, empirical method as the only law, and the fact that we are manipulated at our core from childhood to be oblivious to the fact that you can learn through experience rather than only academics which actually cripple the ability or even the understanding that one can learn through many avenues.

What I am trying to say is that we can tell what us real to us based on our bodies emotional reaction to certain thought. The disconnect between productive thought and emotion has caused the fad of needless over calculations which only confuse people and lead them into further question.

Some advice, if I may. When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.

It's the same when you are stupid.

When you are dead through disbelief your existence is over. You will not know it because there will be no you to contemplate it. Silly. I think stupidity is obvious to some who exhibit it, perhaps not all. Ignorance is apparent upon truthfully introspect.

(July 17, 2015 at 4:37 am)SamS Wrote: No other religion has ever made me ever doubt Christianity.

Then it shouldn't be difficult to see why apologetics have failed to convince -me-, they've failed to convince you as well.

Quote:I view Judaism as incomplete Christianity; ending with the Old Testament is just a huge cliffhanger because so many of the prophecies stated in it are fulfilled by Jesus Christ (Deuteronomy 18:15, as one example). OT ends with promises of great things to come, yet for Judeo-believers, never will. Islam is a corrupted extension of Christianity, whose denial of fundamental Christian doctrine (Resurrection, Christ's Deity, etc) leave the same OT prophecies unfulfilled and therefore incomplete ("pierce my hands and feet" in Psalm 22:16, yet Muslims don't even think Jesus was crucified). 

-and I view your beliefs as co-opting weirdness referent to crystal balls and magic words, but that's okay, there are worse things to be.  

Quote:What about Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age spirituality? They may have had an appeal when I was agnostic, but they don't affect me anymore partly because the Bible frequently criticizes all other gods. Even the 10 plagues were largely an attack on Egypt's false gods (Numbers 33:4). It denounces those who worship "wooden and metal statues and idols", which can do nothing for us. "Saying...Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth" (Jer. 2:27). I can't trust a religion that allows for many gods and acceptance of other religious beliefs. It's paramount to saying there are multiple truths, and "ways to your inner self, mannn", or whatever spiritual nonsense buzzwords they spout. Does the Bible make us narrow-minded? Yes, only so far as the Bible is exclusive itself.

The ten plagues were an attack on egyptian gods?  Strange, seems like they were an attack on the egyptian people....don't recall their being a single divine casualty in that story.  You have trouble accepting a tolerant faith, and the acknowledgement that truth can be arrived upon from many angles - this is unsurprising.  At least you understand that you're narrow minded and accept it, even if you blame it on the bible......which is ridiculous.  You're intolerant and narrow minded because that's the kind of person you are, not because a book made you that way. Just as I'm rude and aggressive, and not because I read the army field manual...it's just who I am.

Quote:Atheism? How about contradictions in the Bible? Those affected when I had a weaker faith, but I have never found one that cannot be resolved in context, or by the right verse sometimes in another book entirely. The Bible is not a weapon against itself. Mythology, other Christ figures in older religions? That was another good one. I've heard it repeatedly mentioned that the god Horus was also born on December 25th, even though no where in the Bible or any historic writings does it say Jesus was born on December 25th, so it's becomes a lie more than anything. In fact, most claims of similarities to other gods are made up in attempts to debunk Christianity (Source). It should be remembered that OT prophecies of Jesus are older than many of supposed Christ clones; take that as you will. The Bible doesn't stop at other religions, it has quite a bit to say about atheism, especially in the Book of Ecclesiastes.

Yes, the bible has alot to say about alot, but who cares unless someone can demonstrate that what the bible says about atheism, for example, is true?  -And if it is, then it no longer matters whether or not it;s in the bible, and it would be true or false regardless of it;s presence between those pages.  Jesus is older than supposed Christ clones?  LOL, which ones, if you don't mind me asking, and what is that supposed to mean, which gods to you seem like jesus clones, or..if you prefer, which "jesus clone" arguments were so compelling that you had to find an explanation?  You familiar with the term syncretism?  There's a fairly straightforward explanation for why "jesus clone" gods exist, and it has nothing to do with which god story came first, nor does it actually -matter- which god story came first in any case.  You seem to take that to mean something that it probably doesn't.  Perhaps I could help you to arrive upon a less shaky "defense of christ" on that count?

Quote:But best argument against Christianity? Making the Bible seem fallible was a pretty big one for me, though a friend of mine once told me he was too far "into science" to believe anything. I'd say scientific arguments can be made to work against any religion.

-Seem- fallible?  It -is- fallible, demonstrably so, but why would that matter?  It's a book, people wrote it.  Finding mistakes, contradictions, or narrative discontinuity shouldn't be surprising, and wouldn't be indicative of anything other than the fact that it is a book written by human beings, and books written by human beings often contain mistakes, contradictions, and narrative discontinuity.  None of that implies or establishes that there is no god, for example.  This has been a long running point of interest for me, as I mentioned earlier...apologetics seems to waste quite a bit of it's time here.  Why are the faithful swayed, one way or another, by what amounts to no more or less than editorial competence?  Got any insight on that?  

Quote:Seriously, to Christians, the Bible is the best proof of itself. Want physical evidence of God? Have a Bible, it is both the claim and the proof of the claim. May seem absolutely stupid, but the age of OT compared to the NT, how one reveals every little secret of the other (especially if you study it), makes the entire thing completely believable. If we only had the NT, I wouldn't believe it either.

I sincerely hope that this isn't true, if that's the best proof, there is no proof.

@Pops......jesus man, you've circled the drain awfully fast.  Dead through disbelief.........? 

(July 17, 2015 at 9:26 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: Not at all. Firstly you will never find truth when clouded by anger, fear, hatred, or some misplaced peer acceptance. Secondly science is a tool to attain knowledge. Math is the only true science. The rest is still a best guess. However many consider it unwaivering fact. This is a grand flaw. Thought is wonderful and a gift. It is related to our unparalleled opportunity for good and bad. With that being said much thought can unknowingly lead one to false conclusions due to the very nature of evil and humans.

Backpedalling at that speed is likely not safe. You were just telling us that emotions can be used as a 'truth' indicator of sorts and now you're claiming that certain emotions result in never finding truth.

You also clearly don't understand the scientific/philosophical concept of provisional. To test what I mean, go to your local market and stare at a bin of apples. Report back when gravity forces them to suddenly fall up.

(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

No. I know you don't want an "all Christian arguments are idiotic" reply, but that actually describes it pretty well. Even the best stuff Christians have to offer, like pseudo-philosopher William Lane Craig(pretty much sums it up saying that he is one of their best), is extremely broken. In fact, the Christian arguments are so scientifically and philosophically erronious that they only cement my belief that I am on the right path.

ETA: Rhythm brought up a good point about the pre-sup arguments. I guess those are about the best Christianity has to offer and can be difficult to outright prove false. They're difficult to demonstrate as bullshit, but they sure do smell like it and aren't enough to convince anyone that is truly skeptical.

(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

If Christianity were true, if the Old and New Testaments accurately described god, the cosmos would be a horrible place. Billions of galaxies with a (likely) uncountable number of sentient civilizations, all created to be fodder for god's focus on one single world, Earth, and one single species, humans. It would be a cosmos of violence and constant threat. On Earth there would be endless wars and conflicts where logic and compassion where in short supply. Rulers would be ruthless, power hungry, and often mad as hatters. Jails would be filled with the mentally ill and those guilty of petty crimes, while the true mass murderers and thieves would live in mansions, ride around in private jets, and wear their fidelity to the god who had rewarded them for their faithful service on their sleeves for all to see. Judgments for just being a human being trying to find one's way in the world would be harsh, supported by xenophobic societies that saw mortal danger in anyone who was just slightly “different.”


Driven nearly mad by god's chosen the world would be a terrible place of exploitation, environmental degradation, abuses of all kinds, with hope fading daily as the “final judgment” approached.


Oh shit … fuck me...

Yeah, you gotta give credit where it's due, eh FNM.  People have spent alot of time trying to hammer god into something demonstrably true.  Of coure they're going to have -something- to show for their trouble.  I actually like the general thrust of pre-sup...in that it asks one to consider which worldviews, out of an endless sea of candidate worldviews, explains the most, and are the most coherent.  Obviously, christian presuppositionalists believe that the christian worldview does, but the same method could be applied to -any- worldview....and it;s not a bad exercise.  I think where pre-sups shine is in demonstrating that some other argument claiming to rule god out simply can;t do so.  They're better leveraged against competing worldviews than they are at establishing the truth of their own, but that's pretty much explicit in their design...so I guess it shouldn't be surprising.

(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Not an argument per se.  I've never heard a proof for Christianity that didn't sound like what it was, a fallacy used to justify pre-existing belief.   The only exception being teleological arguments.  I think people have been convinced by complexity and grandeur of the world that there must be a god to create it.  And if any argument ever came close for me, that would be it. But I'm afraid even a moderate science education tends to kill it.  The wonder in the world increases with knowledge of how it works, but the sense of an outside designer decreases.

What would occasionally pull me in the direction of Christianity as a child is the absolute certainty of some believers I respected/loved.   The statement that they simply knew, suggested that maybe I was missing some way of knowing.  As a teen, I realized that they all knew rather different gods, which suggested to me that maybe they didn't really know, just thought they did.

(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

Not really.  None of the arguments raised has anything to do with the Bible being the word of god.  The thing is that none of the arguments for the existence of god even approach the idea of a god with the least bit of interest in humanity, let alone that the god described in the Bible is the rather abstract first-mover, or great designer postulated by various Christian proofs.  

(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Yes, and it still surprises me today.   When people claim that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses I'm appalled by their lack of critical reading.   And I'm surprised over and over by their persistence in that belief.