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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 11:52 am
I can't worship Jesus anyway because the FSM just took him out with a KO in round 3. He'll be down for a week.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 11:58 am
I think I saw this argument before. Its bullshit trotted by apologists.
Someone above said that atheists live by the principles of science. That is not true as atheism is the lack of belief in gods, nothing more can be inferred. While a lot of atheist are keen to science, science is not necessary to be an atheist. Just a small correction on that.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:09 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 9:56 am)Vault Boy Wrote: Hello fellows...
Bit catchy the title i know but i have a question.
I know that there are many much smarter and better ecudated people out there so i ask you (and I'm also in kind of a hurry  )
I am discussion with a believer and he just posted me this:
Quote:Atheism is the absence of reason..
HERE. you seem to be under the misconception that Atheism has anything thing to do with reality.
Atheism is a Lie. By definition and by logic.
Here. Let me break it down.
DEFINTIONs
FAITH = BELIEF WITHOUT EVIDENCE
KNOWING = BELIEF THROUGH EVIDENCE
BELIEF = ACCEPTANCE OF CLAIM with or without EVIDENCE (Correctness)
DISBELIEF = REJECTION OF CLAIM with or without EVIDENCE (incorrectness)
DO YOU AGREE TO THESE DEFINTIONS? THEY ARE VERY NEUTRAL.
CONSTRUCT 1
Premise 1: No one can define God. (True)
Premise 2: No one KNOWS if God exists or not..(True)
Conclusion: Any CLAIM to KNOW is a lie. (Valid and Sound)
CONSTRUCT 2
Premise 1: Believers HAVE FAITH God Exists. (True)
Premise 2: To HAVE FAITH is claim existence but without evidence (ie. not knowing.) (True)
Conclusion: Believers do not claim to KNOW God exists.(See conlcusion 1.). (VALID AND SOUND)
CONSTRUCT 3
Premise 1: Atheists disbelieve God Exists. (TRUE)
Premise 2: To disbelieve is to falsify a belief based on evidence. (ie. Knowing) (true)
Conclusion: Atheists claim to KNOW the Truth about God's existence. (see conclusion1. )
(Valid & Sound)
Premise 1: If any claim to know is a lie
Premise 2: And Atheists claim to know
Conclsuoin : Atheists lie.
Thats all. it APPLIES exactly the same to christians. That is the beauty of Logic. Impartiality.
Atheism is a lie. By utter logic.
Now prove your atheism exists.
Well i know his construct 3 is false. Wrong definition of disbelief, and definitely wrong conclusion since atheists dont claim to KNOW but...
Is this some kind of circular reasoning?
Any suggestions as how to reply are warmly welcome :
Cheers
Tiberius is correct in his deconstructing of the logical arguments. As a theist and fellow fan of logic, I can only shake my head at his attempt. I see where he was trying to go but as others pointed out he was defining atheism in broad terms. What most atheists I have interacted with are really saying is something like this:
"You are making this claim for which I see no evidence for and have no personal experience with, so until you present some meaningful evidence that I can find persuasive I will operate on the assumption that your claim is false."
If I am mistaken in saying this, please feel free to correct me.
In my eyes, most atheists simply say, "I see no reason to believe a God exists" They are not demonstrably saying "there is no God" because if they made such a statement they would then have to provide the evidence for that absolute statement.
I think my best memory of debating with an atheist though was when he asked me if I thought God was material or immaterial. I replied that I thought God was immaterial. He then asked "can you tell me anything else that is absolute, immaterial and real?" To which I responded, "the laws of logic".
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm
The laws of logic are an abstract concept, they don't literally exist.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:23 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm)robvalue Wrote: The laws of logic are an abstract concept, they don't literally exist.
Semantics Rob. 
Abstract concepts exist in minds, hence immaterial.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:33 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm)robvalue Wrote: The laws of logic are an abstract concept, they don't literally exist.
Now you're an a-logist too?!??!
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:38 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 12:23 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm)robvalue Wrote: The laws of logic are an abstract concept, they don't literally exist.
Semantics Rob.
Abstract concepts exist in minds, hence immaterial.
Yes, but those immaterial concepts derive from a physical brain operating with physical nutrients undamaged. What many theists claim is that said immaterial thoughts could only arise from a supernatural (?) Entity. Study cases from neurologists show that many physical damage to the brain can cause severe change in personality and even grasp on logic. The 3 laws of thought derive from the most basic empirical aspects.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:43 pm
(This post was last modified: August 4, 2015 at 12:47 pm by Excited Penguin.)
(August 4, 2015 at 10:01 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Premise 2 is false, only some atheists claim to know and they are a minority (and 'atheists' is unnecessarily capitalized).
Well I guess I fall into that category. By any stretch of the word, I cannot imagine a universe in which a God could exist. The only way the idea of God itself makes any sense at all is if it is defined merely as the universe itself, nothing more and nothing less but that. We already know that the universe exists, so sure, if some people like to call it God, let them, but other than that I know for sure there is no God just as I know there is no living human inside of a sun, with a DNA like ours, names esdpofgasdfasd;f, that drinks Ice Tea.
Can someone please explain to me why the majority of atheists give this the benefit of the doubt, namely that God certainly doesn't exist? It seems a bit dogmatic.
(August 4, 2015 at 10:05 am)loganonekenobi Wrote: We as atheist live on the principles of science. You can find what is truly involved in going from theory to fact on the internet.
As ussual your opponent is only using word play at trying to discredit the atheist stance instead of producing good evidence.
The main thing about science is that the burden of proof is upon the one who asserted the theory not the ones who refute it.
In fact a true sceintist tries to disprove his own theory to show that he/she has no bias on the point and so can state without doubt that the theory is a fact. If not then not.
Religion goes on faith. True enough. That doesn't mean that you have to, not in this country. I love to remind the theist that.
Why bring science into it though? What does science have to do with anything. It seems to me God is more of a philosophical subject than a scientific one.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:52 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 12:23 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 4, 2015 at 12:13 pm)robvalue Wrote: The laws of logic are an abstract concept, they don't literally exist.
Semantics Rob.
Abstract concepts exist in minds, hence immaterial.
And dependent on an existing mind and minds are just the output of physical processes in the brain. So the thoughts can indeed be material.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Atheism is the absence of reason..
August 4, 2015 at 12:54 pm
(August 4, 2015 at 12:52 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (August 4, 2015 at 12:23 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Semantics Rob.
Abstract concepts exist in minds, hence immaterial.
And dependent on an existing mind and minds are just the output of physical processes in the brain. So the thoughts can indeed be material.
Let me know when one of my thoughts whacks you in the head.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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