Why Christianity?

[Randy Carson]

Randy, are you going to reply to post #244, or should I just chalk it up to another dodging of my points by yet another theist?

Again, I read the post, but didn't see anything that really needed a response.

Since you feel differently, I'll oblige.

1. Yes. That is what I am claiming. To the best of my knowledge, there was no God who was a prototype of Jesus who:

• died and then came back to life in his original body on this earth a few days later
  
• died one time
  
• died as a sacrifice for others
  
• died in a manner that is considered a victory and not mourned by his family and followers
  

There are other significant differences, but we can discuss them specifically as needed. If you believe that the disciples got all these ideas from pagan gods that were in existence before Jesus, what god(s) do you have in mind?
Taking them one at a time would be best. Who is your first candidate?

3. Your sense doesn't make something true. It either is or isn't apart from your opinion. But when something makes sense, you understand and grasp the truth of it.


4. Thank you for the list you provided earlier. Perhaps we can return to it at some point.

I hope this satisfies your request for a response to your post. Please advise.

1. First, I want to say that I do not "believe that the disciples got all these ideas from pagan that were in existence before Jesus." I was only trying to say that there were "gods that died and resurrected before Jesus." Also, what stops me from making up some god that meets all of your prerequisites and say it happened before Jesus?

Absolutely nothing.  

3. But just imagine if scientists worked that way. "Um, yeah. This makes sense to me. Uh huh. Ok, lets put it in the textbooks!"

Noted.

4. I was sort of joking... we don't need to take that any further.

Agreed.

[Shuffle]

1. First, I want to say that I do not "believe that the disciples got all these ideas from pagan that were in existence before Jesus." I was only trying to say that there were "gods that died and resurrected before Jesus." Also, what stops me from making up some god that meets all of your prerequisites and say it happened before Jesus?

Absolutely nothing.   

Ok, then there were millions of gods before Jesus that resurrected just like he did.

So everything you have been saying on this thread is not discounted and we can all move on, right?

[Randy Carson]

Absolutely nothing.   

Ok, then there were millions of gods before Jesus that resurrected just like he did.

So everything you have been saying on this thread is not discounted and we can all move on, right?

I'd like to be really clear on this point: scholars who have studied these so-called "dying and rising gods" of the Middle East find no basis for the claim that the disciples drew upon any of these mythologies as the basis for a copy-cat tale about Jesus.

The evidence points in the opposite direction - members of these pagan cults saw the success of Christianity in the first and second centuries, and they copied Jesus.

[Shuffle]

Ok, then there were millions of gods before Jesus that resurrected just like he did.

So everything you have been saying on this thread is not discounted and we can all move on, right?

I'd like to be really clear on this point: scholars who have studied these so-called "dying and rising gods" of the Middle East find no basis for the claim that the disciples drew upon any of these mythologies as the basis for a copy-cat tale about Jesus.

The evidence points in the opposite direction - members of these pagan cults saw the success of Christianity in the first and second centuries, and they copied Jesus.

I'm talking about the ones I just made up.

[Randy Carson]

I'd like to be really clear on this point: scholars who have studied these so-called "dying and rising gods" of the Middle East find no basis for the claim that the disciples drew upon any of these mythologies as the basis for a copy-cat tale about Jesus.

The evidence points in the opposite direction - members of these pagan cults saw the success of Christianity in the first and second centuries, and they copied Jesus.

I'm talking about the ones I just made up.

Ah...well, it shouldn't be long before the atheists here start mocking your new gods.

Good luck with that.

[abaris]

The evidence points in the opposite direction - members of these pagan cults saw the success of Christianity in the first and second centuries, and they copied Jesus.

As I said. Look at Egyptian myths, Greek myths, all predating christianity by at least centuries and form your own opinion. You're quotemining so called scholars, who confirm your opinion instead of embarking on the journey. Look at the story of Osiris and Dyonisos. Not word for word the same as Jesus, but the concept certainly is the same. There's also the sun god Ra, who according to Egyptian mythology travels through the realm of death at every night to rise again in the morning. Not word for word the same, but again the concept is what counts.

On a side note, Dyonisos even pulled the water to wine trick several centuries before Jesus.

[Shuffle]

Ah...well, it shouldn't be long before the atheists here start mocking your new gods.

Good luck with that.  

Ok, so it seems like I completely debunked your entire premise for being on this thread. Debate WON!

[Randy Carson]

The evidence points in the opposite direction - members of these pagan cults saw the success of Christianity in the first and second centuries, and they copied Jesus.

As I said. Look at Egyptian myths, Greek myths, all predating christianity by at least centuries and form your own opinion. You're quotemining so called scholars, who confirm your opinion instead of embarking on the journey. Look at the story of Osiris and Dyonisos. Not word for word the same as Jesus, but the concept certainly is the same. There's also the sun god Ra, who according to Egyptian mythology travels through the realm of death at every night to rise again in the morning. Not word for word the same, but again the concept is what counts.

On a side note, Dyonisos even pulled the water to wine trick several centuries before Jesus.

Um...I'm "quote-mining" scholars who have studied these same issues for decades. In the original languages. Have you?

The concept is what counts, eh? Yeah, that's my point...there are parallels but no real evidence that supports this stupid hypothesis.

[abaris]

Um...I'm "quote-mining" scholars who have studied these same issues for decades. In the original languages. Have you?

The concept is what counts, eh? Yeah, that's my point...there are parallels but no real evidence that supports this stupid hypothesis.

You're quotemining. I've got a lot of books from scholars on my shelves that say the opposite. I usually don't take what I say on a matter from the internet but from my library. And I've read the myths. Not in their original language, I give you that, but I've read them. The difference being that I don't automatically look for the statement being the most convenient to confirm my opinions. Espacially if I know the author to be opposed to religion. Most of all I look at more than one source. You on the other hand take the first that says what you want to hear and take it as absolute proof for your claim.

We've had that discussion before, but that's not how being critical of your sources works.

With all the scholars you quoted there's not one non christian among them (please don't come with Ehrman again), there are mainly theologians and hardly any historians.

[T.J.]

Though this brings me to another question, if I'm understanding you right you're basically saying the Catholic Church is the one God intended us to follow, so that means the other churches under the Christianity sect are false? I see some people on the flip-side feel the same about Catholics and even spread misinformation. Why is there so much of a divide between people who claim to be God's children?

Two reasons: 1) Satan is very smart, and 2) people are human and have made mistakes.

It seems like all of this can be resolved quite easily if God made any sort of effort to explain clearly how his 'lore' or whatever the hell you want to call it, works. And before it's said, no that wouldn't remove 'free will' clarification on something doesn't remove one's will to act. It's just clarification.