The "not all Muslims are terrorists" fallacy

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Napoleon-

Since most people are "born into" their faith-traditions, and they are culturally enforced by the social groups (the same reason good cops do not often speak out against the bad ones, even though there are more good ones than bad by far) to which the Muslims who might otherwise want to speak out belong, I think the race comparison is valid.

I am not a supporter of Islam, nor of theocracy in any form. However, I know American Muslims, and they are nothing like you describe, when you say "the only difference is that one will kill me and the other will not".

I am not a supporter of Christianity, either, and I attack both vociferously, as I have for the 22 years I have been a nonbeliever (17 as an outright and outspoken atheist, an "upgrade" from my previous "simply not a believer"/justdontgiveafuckist stance).

On the other hand, I'm not going to sit here and try to have a rational discussion with someone who's being an asshole. If you can't grasp that social pressure to conform to their family/social group is real, is overwhelmingly strong regardless of the overall liberty of the nation (say the US or UK), it's either because you don't understand sociology or won't empathize with people who are not of your (our!) belief structure. Therefore it is not worth my time to lower myself to your emotional "debate" level.

[Regina]

The thing is, this is what the pro-Islamist ass-kissing left do as well. They just do it in the favour of the parasitical imams and the (relatively) privileged within the Muslim community (hetereosexual practicing Muslim men). When a Muslim man pours a kettle of boiling water over his gay son in Germany, he gets a slap on the wrist fine "because culture" where an ethnically German father would (quite rightly) get jail for assault, GBH and child abuse.

If you want to treat Muslims the same, you get rid of the Sharia courts and put them under the same law as everyone else, you get rid of all religious schools (not just Muslim schools, Christian ones too), and you stop defending misogyny and homophobia as peoples' culture when an honour killing happens. All those things are as intrisically racist as the far-right who ostracize and demonize Muslims, because they play into racist stereotypes and take "the angry Muslim" as the image of the authentic Muslim, who they have to defend as a minority. This is at the expense of the other Muslims (namely, women, among others) whose rights they violate.

And when these people get bold enough, yes that's scary to both Muslims and non-Muslims. Being scared of the very real possibility of 7/7 or Lee Rigby happening again is not a "phobia", fear is a damn natural and rational response.

Yeaux, you didn't answer my question though.

Well because my answer to that question is obvious tbh, of course I'm not advocating for that. I thought that much was obvious already, I wouldn't waste my time caring about Muslims who are killed by other Muslims if that was how I felt.

I'm just saying it's not an irrational fear.

[Catholic_Lady]

Napoleon-

Since most people are "born into" their faith-traditions, and they are culturally enforced by the social groups (the same reason good cops do not often speak out against the bad ones, even though there are more good ones than bad by far) to which the Muslims who might otherwise want to speak out belong, I think the race comparison is valid.

I am not a supporter of Islam, nor of theocracy in any form. However, I know American Muslims, and they are nothing like you describe, when you say "the only difference is that one will kill me and the other will not".

I am not a supporter of Christianity, either, and I attack both vociferously, as I have for the 22 years I have been a nonbeliever (17 as an outright and outspoken atheist, an "upgrade" from my previous "simply not a believer"/justdontgiveafuckist stance).

On the other hand, I'm not going to sit here and try to have a rational discussion with someone who's being an asshole. If you can't grasp that social pressure to conform to their family/social group is real, is overwhelmingly strong regardless of the overall liberty of the nation (say the US or UK), it's either because you don't understand sociology or won't empathize with people who are not of your (our!) belief structure. Therefore it is not worth my time to lower myself to your emotional "debate" level.

I find myself conflicted on this whole Islam thing. 

Napo made some very valid points, but I see your side as well, Surgeon. I hate Isis. HATE them. And I feel bad about hating them because I'm not supposed to, but I just do. The amount of hate I feel for these people is something I've struggled with for the past couple of years, and it doesn't help that my husband is in the military. I hate radical Islamists, and I hate the underlying misogyny in even the Americanized Muslims, and I HATE that more of them aren't lobbying and marching down the streets, calling for their people in the Middle East to stop the violence. I hate that my Muslims friend complains more about Fox News making Islam look bad, than he does about freaking Isis making Islam look bad! But at the same time, he is one of my best friends, and I love him, and I know that he and his muslim friends and family are good people who shouldn't be looked down on or treated as anything other than good decent people. I don't want anyone to take out their anger for Isis on these good people.

[Catholic_Lady]

Yeaux, you didn't answer my question though.

Well because my answer to that question is obvious tbh, of course I'm not advocating for that. I thought that much was obvious already, I wouldn't waste my time caring about Muslims who are killed by other Muslims if that was how I felt.

I'm just saying it's not an irrational fear.

Ah I see what you mean. I don't know if it is or isn't a rational fear, but what I was saying was simply to be careful with our attitude towards Muslims as not to repeat the past in regards to what we did to the Japanese. And that I think that's where the "not all Muslims are terrorists" thing comes from and why people say it so much.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I find myself conflicted on this whole Islam thing. 

Napo made some very valid points, but I see your side as well, Surgeon. I hate Isis. HATE them. And I feel bad about hating them because I'm not supposed to, but I just do. The amount of hate I feel for these people is something I've struggled with for the past couple of years, and it doesn't help that my husband is in the military. I hate radical Islamists, and I hate the underlying misogyny in even the Americanized Muslims, and I HATE that more of them aren't lobbying and marching down the streets, calling for their people in the Middle East to stop the violence. I hate that my Muslims friend complains more about Fox News making Islam look bad, than he does about freaking Isis making Islam look bad! But at the same time, he is one of my best friends, and I love him, and I know that he and his muslim friends and family are good people who shouldn't be looked down on or treated as anything other than good decent people. I don't want anyone to take out their anger for Isis on these good people.

I don't feel conflicted about it at all. I loathe ISIS with every fiber of my being. I think they are on par with the worst humans that have ever existed. Ever. They murder and rape and steal and destroy, all in the name of forcing their views on others. If a Hellfire missile lands on each of their heads in the next minute, I will shed exactly zero tears for their passing.

I loathe the tenets of the religious tradition which devalues women, which teaches that it's okay to treat people of other faiths differently, and/or which attacks reason, freedom, and the ability to attain knowledge which conflicts with their ideologies. (I mean Christianity, of course...I also think Islam is really bad in this respect. Hehe.)

Fundamentalism, in every stripe in which it exists, is anathema to humanity, whether it is in the name of Maoist/Leninist communism or nationalist jingoism or religion. It's one of the reasons that maintaining "the wall of separation of church and state" is so important, for those who would tear it down to see their own beliefs enshrined in law are indistinguishable from the other groups they claim to hate for doing the same thing in other locations where the other group has local superiority in numbers, except in small details. Most people of faith in the secularist nations, regardless of their specific religion, do understand why religion must be kept as a private thing, and I often point out to people that the president of Americans United for Separation of Church and State is a preacher, Reverend Barry Lynn of the United Church of Christ.

I too would feel a lot better about Islam if we saw more of them saying "hey what the fuck?" when their leadership teaches them the insane things that seem to be part of Muslim culture in general, and I'd love to see them arguing against that as much as they denounce the poor way they are represented in the media and by bigots. But sadly, that's not the way most people work. Even here, there's often a silence in the face of bigotry when our fellow atheists unfairly attack and/or broad-brush paint people of faith, though it's no less unfair when it happens here than when it happens anywhere else.

We are a species that has evolved into tribal social animals, with a strong instinct toward xenophobia, hating/fearing and often falsely stereotyping the Others Who are the Enemy™. To my shame, I have occasionally stood silent when I see fellow atheists unfairly stepping over that line, out of a sense of community, even though it is not a part of our community's overall philosophy (what little there is of such) to squash dissent or to respect poor opinions even from one another (as you can see in this thread!). I know from my religious societal experience that they do actively teach that sense of "Us versus Them", and that the pressure to conform can be fierce, even when you see "your" group doing wrong. That's why I brought up the good cops staying silent in the face of police corruption cultural issue. I think it works the same way.

[Napoléon]

I am not a supporter of Islam, nor of theocracy in any form. However, I know American Muslims, and they are nothing like you describe, when you say "the only difference is that one will kill me and the other will not".

When did I say that? Call me an asshole all you want but at least have the courtesy of doing so in respect to shit I've actually said.

I know muslims too and I can tell you they are exactly as I describe (although I don't remember describing them all that much in this thread...). Guess that's worth diddleesquat.

I am not a supporter of Christianity, either, and I attack both vociferously, as I have for the 22 years I have been a nonbeliever (17 as an outright and outspoken atheist, an "upgrade" from my previous "simply not a believer"/justdontgiveafuckist stance).

Cool.

On the other hand, I'm not going to sit here and try to have a rational discussion with someone who's being an asshole.

Nobody's forcing you dude.

If you can't grasp that social pressure to conform to their family/social group is real, is overwhelmingly strong regardless of the overall liberty of the nation (say the US or UK), it's either because you don't understand sociology or won't empathize with people who are not of your (our!) belief structure. Therefore it is not worth my time to lower myself to your emotional "debate" level.

Ah, the old "you can't grasp the situation" fallacy. Basically nothing more than an ad hom here.

I don't think it worth my time talking to someone who is going to wilfully ignore my points and shout "you don't understand" in the face of them. Pretty ironic really. And pretty weak.

Inabit m8.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm torn on this topic. I've said "Not all ... " here in this forum, because sometimes not just the verbiage but the subtext as well needs to be addressed. I certainly wasn't trying to shut down discussion, but I do see that phrase used in that way as well.

[pocaracas]

Rocket, Napo's in Birmingham, the UK muslim capital... he should know some stuff about them...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...stian.html

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Rocket, Napo's in Birmingham, the UK muslim capital... he should know some stuff about them...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...stian.html

Right. I'd ask more about his views about the scary foreign invaders with dangerous, hostile religious views, but I've got to go interview someone from Texas on his views about Mexican-Americans.

I do owe you an apology, though, Napo. I read someone say the only difference was that one type of Muslim killed you and the other did not, which I thought was you. I'm trying to finish up my work while also reading/posting here, and I let my attention get divided. I know someone said it, but I looked for it, and it is no longer anywhere in the thread, so it has been edited out by whomever it was that said that. Since you say it was not you, I will believe you. My mistake, and I am sorry.

[Catholic_Lady]

Rocket, Napo's in Birmingham, the UK muslim capital... he should know some stuff about them...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...stian.html

Right. I'd ask more about his views about the scary foreign invaders with dangerous, hostile religious views, but I've got to go interview someone from Texas on his views about Mexican-Americans.

I do owe you an apology, though, Napo. I read someone say the only difference was that one type of Muslim killed you and the other did not, which I thought was you. I'm trying to finish up my work while also reading/posting here, and I let my attention get divided. I know someone said it, but I looked for it, and it is no longer anywhere in the thread, so it has been edited out by whomever it was that said that. Since you say it was not you, I will believe you. My mistake, and I am sorry.

Are you referring to post #38?