Are you okay with your (or your partner's) vajayjay?

[Kingpin]

It's just sad that women need to feel that self conscious. I prefer hot and dirty. shower is for after or during....

[Exian]

Yeah, no. When we say scent, or smell, or aroma, we don't mean no smell at all!? Personally, I like it to marinate during a good day's work and get at it

Yeah, I've heard some other guys express that preference, as well.

And many women would hold up their hands in horror at such an idea.

I spoke with one guy who was getting extremely frustrated that his super-hygienic girlfriend insisted on a shower before sex, every single time, and this "ruined" it for him, for that very reason.

Women have been taught that their bodies are disgusting and in constant need of fixing and cleansing.

Many women can't enjoy oral from their partners AT ALL because they're terribly self-conscious...even if they just had a shower.

Yeah, I'm not so for it that a shower ruins sex for me, though. A "clean" VJ (Vein Jockey?) is still a va-jayjay.

[Edwardo Piet]

As for the supposed "grossness" of putting a penis in your mouth, you're a couple of million times worse-off (literally, from a bacteria-count point of view) kissing a girl's hand as putting a penis or a vagina in your mouth, whether or not they are all washed.

That's not why it would be "gross" to me as a straight man... it is more to do with the fact that as a straight man it would be, by definition, without consent. So at best I'd be grossed out and shocked.

I am no homophobe.

[MTL]

Ok, well, I'm just going to carry on because I think this is a good thread.

So for me,

so far there's two important components here that this thread has identified as potential sources of female sexual insecurity:

appearance:  (KUSA referenced the dimensions of clitoris and labia; both things some women are self-conscious about)

scent:  as long as she's clean and healthy, most men seem to concur that the female scent isn't bad at all;
rather the opposite;

now I'll raise a third:  Practices.  Specifically a practice known as "tribadism" (pronounced "tribbid-ism")

If any of you viewed the webpage that RocketSurgeon posted in another thread, some time ago, on Bonobo apes,
this practice was also described therein, if not named as such, as being practiced by primates other than humans, as well;

the term has a certain fluidity of use, but it primarily refers to the strictly female sexual act of genital-to-genital contact, using friction but not penetration, usually but not exclusively with another female; can also be done with an inanimate object or with a male partner.  In porn, the term "scissoring" is also substituted for tribadism but I feel this is misleading; scissoring is one position that can be used, in a lesbian context, for the practice of tribadism (or "tribbing") but the two terms are not necessarily synonymous.

So my point is this:  it kind of comes back to shaming females because of the "unfeminine" nature of the clitoris, insofar as it corresponds to the penis...and apart from it's mere appearance, and the fact that most females derive pleasure from its stimulation;

I wonder how most males feel about a female taking a dominant role in the acquiring that pleasure, IE tribadism in one form or another. 

Many females learn to self-pleasure via tribadism, early in life, in fact;

so to be shamed because of the mere existence of their clitorises,
nevermind the method they naturally take to pleasure themselves,
is arguably sexually debilitating,
and it very likely repressed due to fear of male insecurity, discomfort, boredom, or derision.

Thoughts?

(Other than that I am going to be sent to Coventry for not taking this to A69)?

EDIT: It is worth noting that there is a male counterpart for tribadism....it is called "frotting" and has also been observed in the higher primates, as well.

there is a whole subsection of the gay male subculture that eschews anal sex entirely, opting for the practice of frotting instead, as a satisfactory substitute.

And again, the term is somewhat fluid...it can refer to activity carried out with or without clothing on, and not exclusively between gay males,
but also between males and females.

I point out this whole subject because in porn, no one bats an eye if the guy suddenly decides to position himself between a woman's breasts for his own pleasure, another form of non-penetrative sex,

but how often, by comparison, do you see women pleasing themselves on a man's thigh, or elsewhere on his body?

many would dub the practice as "weird" or at the very least, superfluous.

And i think it's a sad double-standard, myself.

SECOND EDIT:

I think it bears mentioning that the practice of tribadism is something most frequently done by lesbian couples,
but many lesbians even fail to ever try the practice,
ASSUMING that manual, oral, or artificial means of stimulation will be preferable;
however I have read blog posts from some lesbians who volunteered that once it was given a chance,
it surpassed even oral as a preferred method of pleasure.

[Edwardo Piet]

I wonder how most males feel about a female taking a dominant role in the acquiring that pleasure, IE tribadism in one form or another.

Count me amongst them... I'm extremely switchy so a female can totally - I'll cut it short there since it would be Area 69 language.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

As for the supposed "grossness" of putting a penis in your mouth, you're a couple of million times worse-off (literally, from a bacteria-count point of view) kissing a girl's hand as putting a penis or a vagina in your mouth, whether or not they are all washed.

That's not why it would be "gross" to me as a straight man... it is more to do with the fact that as a straight man it would be, by definition, without consent. So at best I'd be grossed out and shocked.

I am no homophobe.

If you are repulsed,  rather than simply disinterested, at the thought of sexual activity with a man, then you have some homophobia. It's not your fault, our culture has taught men to fear and loathe one another since childhood. We can't even hold hands or kiss hello or show anything like the level of affection that is common between females (in the United States, anyway). We have a very narrow range of "approved" methods of showing affection for another man. This is homophobia. It's not hatred, at least not hatred of gays any more than the hatred it has taught us to feel for ourselves and our fellow man, but it is a form of fear, or phobia. I pointed to the bacteria issue to highlight the fact that it is in no way based on empirical data, but on cultural programming. Do I have a desire to suck a dick? No. But it wouldn't bother me to do so, either. (Being actually forced is a very different thing, of course; that's rape, and has no real correlation to sex, but to a violation of power dynamics.) I think that C_L's expression of disdain for the vagina is rooted in a similar training to loathe one's own gender; it's not homophobia in the usual sense of the way that word is commonly used (as = fear-based hatred), but it is a form of it. Recognizing this fact is key to a better understanding of self and of others.

More interesting is a thought I first had, back in college: if men say that it is "gross" to suck a dick, and use the term "cocksucker" as a dire insult (or in general express the sentiment that gay men are inferior because they enjoy sex with one another), then we are saying that a woman has a "place" that is lower in society's eyes. We're saying that what we expect of our wives/girlfriends is debasing, disgusting, or degrading  when a man does it... but then we try to convince women that they should enjoy it! I think there is a clear corollary between homophobia and misogyny, and that we shortchange ourselves when we make this act into something "gross".

Cocksucker should be the nicest thing you can say about a person, male or female. "That person brings great pleasure to men."

The fact that I don't wish to do it is just too bad. Might make me a better person!

[MTL]

I wonder how most males feel about a female taking a dominant role in the acquiring that pleasure, IE tribadism in one form or another.

Count me amongst them... I'm extremely switchy so a female can totally - I'll cut it short there since it would be Area 69 language.

"switchy"???

[Edwardo Piet]

@ Rocketsurgeon You missed my point completely, I'm repulsed by non-consensual sex regardless of sex. Is that homophobia?

EDIT: It's irrational of me but merely hypothetically suggesting that I might be the slightest bit homophobic has upset me quite a bit. I understand you're being hypothetical and riffing with your "if"ing and I apologise for being so overly sensitive. But please get to know my viewpoint a bit more before you suggest I might be homophobic. I'm a sensitive guy and you don't have to be the same back, I'm merely asking. I understand if you don't be sensitive back. It's your choice totally, I'm sorry for being a nag.

If I wanted to suck a dick I'm sure I'd enjoy it. Seen as I don't want to and thus far at least have never been attracted to a man then if I were to suck a penis it would not be with my consent. I find non-consensual activity repulsive. Clear? Please don't think of me as homophobic I want to be your friend as I have a neurotic need to be liked by everyone I meet.

[Catholic_Lady]

That part, however, I'm not so convinced of.

I think lots of straight men think their penis is the centre of the universe, lol

Keyword "their".

Other guys' junk is meh... subpar... weird... crooked... ugly... yucky...
you get the picture.

HOMOPHOBIC!!!! 

[MTL]

That's not why it would be "gross" to me as a straight man... it is more to do with the fact that as a straight man it would be, by definition, without consent. So at best I'd be grossed out and shocked.

I am no homophobe.

If you are repulsed,  rather than simply disinterested, at the thought of sexual activity with a man, then you have some homophobia. It's not your fault, our culture has taught men to fear and loathe one another since childhood. We can't even hold hands or kiss hello or show anything like the level of affection that is common between females (in the United States, anyway). We have a very narrow range of "approved" methods of showing affection for another man. This is homophobia. It's not hatred, at least not hatred of gays any more than the hatred it has taught us to feel for ourselves and our fellow man, but it is a form of fear, or phobia. I pointed to the bacteria issue to highlight the fact that it is in no way based on empirical data, but on cultural programming. Do I have a desire to suck a dick? No. But it wouldn't bother me to do so, either. (Being actually forced is a very different thing, of course; that's rape, and has no real correlation to sex, but to a violation of power dynamics.) I think that C_L's expression of disdain for the vagina is rooted in a similar training to loathe one's own gender; it's not homophobia in the usual sense of the way that word is commonly used (as = fear-based hatred), but it is a form of it. Recognizing this fact is key to a better understanding of self and of others.

More interesting is a thought I first had, back in college: if men say that it is "gross" to suck a dick, and use the term "cocksucker" as a dire insult (or in general express the sentiment that gay men are inferior because they enjoy sex with one another), then we are saying that a woman has a "place" that is lower in society's eyes. We're saying that what we expect of our wives/girlfriends is debasing, disgusting, or degrading  when a man does it... but then we try to convince women that they should enjoy it! I think there is a clear corollary between homophobia and misogyny, and that we shortchange ourselves when we make this act into something "gross".

Cocksucker should be the nicest thing you can say about a person, male or female. "That person brings great pleasure to men."

The fact that I don't wish to do it is just too bad. Might make me a better person!

EXCELLENT clarity in this post, about the boundaries of homophobia. Well done.

This also calls to mind another paradox I've observed in commercial pornography, and it sort of ties into my post about tribadism:

Women who are genuinely enjoying themselves during sex, are usually women who are not in the least bit self-conscious.

Women in commercial porn are going to great lengths to CONVINCE the male viewers that she is enjoying herself,
when in fact she is the most self-conscious that a woman can be, during sex,
and is therefore, usually, not really enjoying herself at all.

Hence the paradox:

Women are supposed to ACT like they're enjoying everything the man is doing (for his own enjoyment) during sex;

...but a woman who is GENUINELY enjoying herself is still treated by many as if she is being selfish or gross or unfeminine.