Are you okay with your (or your partner's) vajayjay?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

EXCELLENT clarity in this post, about the boundaries of homophobia.  Well done.

This also calls to mind another paradox I've observed in commercial pornography, and it sort of ties into my post about tribadism:

Women who are genuinely enjoying themselves during sex, are usually women who are not in the least bit self-conscious.

Women in commercial porn are going to great lengths to CONVINCE the male viewers that she is enjoying herself,
when in fact she is the most self-conscious that a woman can be, during sex,
and is therefore, usually, not really enjoying herself at all.

Hence the paradox:

Women are supposed to ACT like they're enjoying everything the man is doing (for his own enjoyment) during sex;

...but a woman who is GENUINELY enjoying herself is still treated by many as if she is being selfish or gross or unfeminine.

Thank you. Totally agree, re: sexual dynamics in porn, reality versus fantasy.

However, I should pick a small bone (hehe) with you about how it was phrased. A woman who is genuinely enjoying herself may be seen as a threat to the man's masculinity, since we are taught that it is our job  to please the woman through our godlike performance with our magical baton. This is why small-penis porn is barely a thing. (No pun intended this time.) For men, it's a fantasy that if I just had a big enough wang and "banged" her hard enough with it, I'll make her squeal like he does. The woman-who-takes-sexual-power-for-herself concept dates back to the legend of the demon-woman, Lilith, who wanted to be on top.

An ex-GF of mine, who was in grad school to become a sex therapist, was fond of the expression, "Ladies, you are responsible for your own orgasms." She was also fond of pointing to the research that showed men on average tend to be deeply intimidated by the concept of a non-weak woman, even an intelligent woman, because of the cultural power-dynamics they feel they are required to maintain in order to "be a Real Man", as the cliché goes.

Oddly, I  found the concept oddly freeing, for it allowed me to see her as a co-equal partner in bed, and the very fact that I was freed from feeling the sole responsibility for "making her come" actually improved my sexual performance, allowed me to be more honest about what did and didn't please her, and allowed me to enjoy her efforts on my behalf without feeling bad about it.

[Edwardo Piet]

Oh I would have expected a google search... sorry...

It means I can switch between dominant and submissive.

Homophobia is a form of bigotry like any other. It is not about not wanting to have someone else's penis in your mouth when you don't want to have it in your mouth.

Can't even make a lighthearted non-serious comment these days without someone getting on their soapbox. Don't waste that soapbox energy on the decent people - direct it to the bigots who think that there's actually anything bad or wrong with being gay - THAT is homophobia.

[MTL]

Oh I would have expected a google search... sorry...

It means I can switch between dominant and submissive.

Oh, I knew THAT!  Silly me. Sorry.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

The point I was trying to make, in that example, was that denying you have homophobia in your heart while expressing clear repulsion for the sex-act is an indicator of hidden (even from self) homophobia. It's like denying that you have some  element of racism in your heart is a pretty good indicator that you have some element of racist feelings in your heart, even if you have not really examined them. It's the reason that people like Stephen Colbert mock those who claim to be "color-blind". 

I disagree with this completely lol. Homophobia is not being grossed out by the thought of doing sexual things with other men when you are not attracted to men. 

I am grossed out by the thought of doing sexual things with *anyone* I'm not attracted to. Regardless of their gender. And since I'm not attracted to any woman, it grosses me out to think about going down on one. This is not homophobia lol.

I get your point, in that you're talking about needing to be attracted to someone before any sexual act whatsoever becomes palatable to you. That's fair. But I think both of you are overlooking my point. I'll try to come up with a better illustration of my point...

Say that (somehow, let's use magic), your husband got his wang cut off in an unfortunate accident at work, was rushed to the hospital and given a sex-change operation. This is a person to whom you are attracted, with whom you are in love, and yet I suspect if you examine your motives clearly enough, you'd find you're still repulsed by the idea of vagina. Again, it's okay. We need a different word for the distinction between homophobia and hatred... I actually dislike when the term "homophobia" is used to describe hateful and active bigotry against the LGBTQ community.

[MTL]

EXCELLENT clarity in this post, about the boundaries of homophobia.  Well done.

This also calls to mind another paradox I've observed in commercial pornography, and it sort of ties into my post about tribadism:

Women who are genuinely enjoying themselves during sex, are usually women who are not in the least bit self-conscious.

Women in commercial porn are going to great lengths to CONVINCE the male viewers that she is enjoying herself,
when in fact she is the most self-conscious that a woman can be, during sex,
and is therefore, usually, not really enjoying herself at all.

Hence the paradox:

Women are supposed to ACT like they're enjoying everything the man is doing (for his own enjoyment) during sex;

...but a woman who is GENUINELY enjoying herself is still treated by many as if she is being selfish or gross or unfeminine.

Thank you. Totally agree, re: sexual dynamics in porn, reality versus fantasy.

However, I should pick a small bone (hehe) with you about how it was phrased. A woman who is genuinely enjoying herself may be seen as a threat to the man's masculinity, since we are taught that it is our job  to please the woman through our godlike performance with our magical baton. This is why small-penis porn is barely a thing. (No pun intended this time.) For men, it's a fantasy that if I just had a big enough wang and "banged" her hard enough with it, I'll make her squeal like he does. The woman-who-takes-sexual-power-for-herself concept dates back to the legend of the demon-woman, Lilith, who wanted to be on top.

An ex-GF of mine, who was in grad school to become a sex therapist, was fond of the expression, "Ladies, you are responsible for your own orgasms." She was also fond of pointing to the research that showed men on average tend to be deeply intimidated by the concept of a non-weak woman, even an intelligent woman, because of the cultural power-dynamics they feel they are required to maintain in order to "be a Real Man", as the cliché goes.

Oddly, I  found the concept oddly freeing, for it allowed me to see her as a co-equal partner in bed, and the very fact that I was freed from feeling the sole responsibility for "making her come" actually improved my sexual performance, allowed me to be more honest about what did and didn't please her, and allowed me to enjoy her efforts on my behalf without feeling bad about it.

oh, of COURSE.  Why didn't I think of that?

I once tried to convey that very idea to a guy, only backwards:

I said, if a woman doesn't WANT to come, nothing you do is going to MAKE her come.

I couldn't figure out at the time why he looked so stricken.

Poor guy.  He thought it was his job, or worse, a measure of how much of a man he was.

Actually, this points to an even larger picture of social dynamics:

I always wanted to be as self-sufficient a person as possible,
and not ever be accused of having a man "carry" me through life;

Ironically, many men, for all their complaining about "the ole' ball-and-chain"
seem to almost resent a woman who is too self-sufficient;
because it's like they take it as an insult....like she has no use for him.

And once again, the diametric misunderstanding! 

it's just the opposite:  I wanted his respect,
and I wanted him to know that I respected him, too;

I wanted him to know that I wasn't about to "use" him as a pack-mule to get through life.

[Little lunch]

I imagine if I suddenly had a vagina, the last thing in the world I would want is to have some guy lick it.
I guess I must be homophobic. :-)

[Edwardo Piet]

Oh if I loved someone and I was attracted to them and they had a sex change into a man I'd totally still find them attractive. Or am I still a homophobe in your increasingly broad definition Rocketsurgeon? *sighs*

To be honest I don't think you understand the definition. It's a form of bigotry. It's like racism or sexism or anything else - homophobia is when you think something is wrong with being gay or they shouldn't have equal rights or that it is "bad" or not equal. Have I said anything to suggest that? No. And fuck people who are homophobic. It's as bad as any other kind of bigotry and for exactly the same reasons.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I have no repulsion for the sex act at all.... only doing it when I don't want to.... what is not repulsive about being made to do something you don't want to do sexually? Hypothetically speaking.

To be honest I find this all rather condescending and petty and since I know I'm not homophobic but I don't know Rocketsurgeon, I consider it possible he is more homophobic than myself, since I know I'm not one bit already and I don't know him. Maybe you are hiding your own insecurities Rocketsurgeon? Should I be distrusting of you too?

Here is a point for you Rocketsurgeon: Instead of distrusting my motives and banging on about what I first said  - maybe you can give me the benefit of the doubt as a fairly intelligent and decent human being and let me clarify my position.

If you're going to attack homophobia which is totally justified of course - why don't you go and argue with real genuine homophobes instead of me? I'm not stupid enough to be such a bigot.

*sigh* "Condescending and petty"? "maybe you are hiding your own insecurities"?

As the Bard once put it, in Hamlet, "The [gentleman] doth protest too much, methinks."

Whence the source of your anger? Is it really so impossible that you have some undiscovered homophobia in your heart, something which is not your fault because it is undiscovered, and which was implanted there without your awareness by the culture that says to fear our fellow man? But rather than stop and wonder, "do i  have such ideas?", you chose to lash out at me.

The fact that you felt the need to deflect with the stuff about not being attracted to men (I am also not attracted to men) as a way of dodging the question of whether or not you feel in your heart that the sex act of dick-sucking is itself a degrading and/or disgusting thing to do, indicates to me that there's more going on beneath the surface.  If there was nothing else going on, then you would have found it easy to just say, "Yeah I guess there's absolutely no problem with it. Not gross. Just not something I feel compelled to do."

Again, I don't think you're a homophobe. That doesn't mean you (and I) don't house some unexamined homophobia, which (being "not stupid enough to be a bigot", as we both are) we would quickly expunge from our thought-processes, the moment we realized it was there. If you cannot consider the possibility  that it is there...

[Edwardo Piet]

I guess I can sort of see your point, Cath.

I don't want to kiss certain guys, but I'm still a straight woman.
The idea of intimacy with anyone I'm not attracted to could be seen as repulsive,
regardless of their gender.

Yes, she made the point perfectly. 

What the fuck has not being attractive to a person regardless of sex got to do with homophobia? Fuck all. Homophobia is about bigotry.

[Catholic_Lady]

I disagree with this completely lol. Homophobia is not being grossed out by the thought of doing sexual things with other men when you are not attracted to men. 

I am grossed out by the thought of doing sexual things with *anyone* I'm not attracted to. Regardless of their gender. And since I'm not attracted to any woman, it grosses me out to think about going down on one. This is not homophobia lol.

I get your point, in that you're talking about needing to be attracted to someone before any sexual act whatsoever becomes palatable to you. That's fair. But I think both of you are overlooking my point. I'll try to come up with a better illustration of my point...

Say that (somehow, let's use magic), your husband got his wang cut off in an unfortunate accident at work, was rushed to the hospital and given a sex-change operation. This is a person to whom you are attracted, with whom you are in love, and yet I suspect if you examine your motives clearly enough, you'd find you're still repulsed by the idea of vagina. Again, it's okay. We need a different word for the distinction between homophobia and hatred... I actually dislike when the term "homophobia" is used to describe hateful and active bigotry against the LGBTQ community.

Obviously I'd still love him and be attracted to him, and he'd still be a man. But would I like that his penis turned into a "fake" vagina? No. Again, I don't think this has anything to do with homophobia. I'm a heterosexual woman. I am attracted to men and men parts lol.

Why not tell us what exact definition of "homophobia" you are using? This may help clear up any misunderstanding.