Question from my friend about existence of God

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Every atheist who joins the military.

Up for debate. Not because of individual motivation, but because of what the ones in power have in mind.

Regardless of how we might feel about the uses of a military force, the fact is that a person who volunteers to serve in a military force is pledging his life to a non-selfish cause, that of protecting his nation. How the nation chooses to define that "protection" is another matter.

My point was that you don't step in front of bullets for selfish reasons.

[ohreally]

That doesn't address the question of the existence of a god in any way. If all atheists are greedy and selfish and all religious people are humble and pious and giving it doesn't change the fact that god is still magic.

I'm not impressed by someone who voluntarily gives up everything, that is their choice but it's not related to how much good they do or how many people they help.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

That doesn't address the question of the existence of a god in any way.  If all atheists are greedy and selfish and all religious people are humble and pious and giving it doesn't change the fact that god is still magic.

I'm not impressed by someone who voluntarily gives up everything, that is their choice but it's not related to how much good they do or how many people they help.

Good points.

I'm sick of the entire meme of "religion makes people behave better". Not only does it conflict with what we observe in reality (and all of history), but it often provides justification for horrible things, at least as often as it motivates people to be better to one another.

And I'm definitely not impressed by people who give up their lives over religious beliefs. It's no sillier to me to hear about a Christian who performs their "volunteer" activities because they think Jesus wants them to than to hear about a Scientologist who does what Xenu wants, or a person who tells me that the Leprechauns demand that they be kind to others.

Either you're a decent fucking human being, or you're not, and religion changes nothing about that.

[Minimalist]

Tl;dr friend doesn't believe someone can give up everything to help others without inspiration from a higher being or influence. Need an example. Can't think of one or find one.

Simple answer: Doctors without borders.

Or, as they are known in the US.  Targets.

[Cecelia]

There's so few people willing to give up absolutely everything in the world. How many religious people have been willing to give up everything? Not many. So I don't think that says much positive for religion. I don't think it says anything about there being a god either, especially since those people were from different religions. Even then one can question if Ghandi or Jesus were really good people (assuming Historical Jesus actually existed).

[abaris]

Regardless of how we might feel about the uses of a military force, the fact is that a person who volunteers to serve in a military force is pledging his life to a non-selfish cause, that of protecting his nation. How the nation chooses to define that "protection" is another matter.

No, it isn't. Not from my point of view, which is from a country that stood on the wrong side in two world wars. That's why I made a distinction between personal motivation and national (ab)use. I would be hard pressed to name any just cause the US stood for since WWII. Not as abysmally wrong as Germany in WWII, but not furthering the cause of humanity either.

Also, there's a famous Hermann Goering quote about soldiers going to war for their country and how to motivate them. He said that to the shrink Gilbert at Nuremberg. It's eerily fitting the bill of American propaganda to convince the population they're fighting a just war.

That's not supposed to be anti American, only anti nationalism and anti government, which sends their young people into fights that weren't necessary in the first place.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I didn't take it as anti-American, and I certainly value the German perspective on the question! I also don't happen to disagree with your conclusions, with the exception of the fact that a person who has been deluded into thinking their jingoism is a selfless act... whatever bullshit they were fed to make them think they are doing something noble, they are nevertheless taking an action they believe to be noble (the same applies to the people to whom the OP's friend was referring) because of the ideologies they had swallowed.

The fact that a Nazi was an expert on how to manipulate peoples' minds to fool them into perfoming "self-sacrificial" actions that happen to benefit those in power isn't a condemnation on those who bought it so much as a shining insight into how religions even form in the first place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go help a whole bunch of my fellow Israelites wipe out the heathen Amalekites over the next hill. God said that they've rejected His Plan™, and are a threat to us, so it's okay to destroy them. Toodles!

[brewer]

Welcome!

I don't understand why your friend thinks that poverty (giving everything up) necessarily equates to charity, philanthropy, inspiration, or what ever he wants to call it. Self imposed poverty is done for ones own selfish motivation. Basically, if I'm living impoverished god will love me more. Other than as an "example" I am hard pressed to think of a modern day pauper that has done more good than some of the wealthy.

If poverty equals godliness/god inspired, why is the catholic (or any religion) church so wealthy? Why are there mega churches? Why are there preachers on TV telling you that god will give you money if you first give them a donation? From what I can tell most religions = gathering money, not distributing.

Want a name? Try Andrew Carnegie.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates, both atheists and major philanthropists, well beyond what would be necessary to get tax exemptions.

Edit to Add: It just dawned on me... we get hit from both directions. The followers of this socialist preacher named Jesus, who said to share your wealth with the poor until you have given it all away, tell us that we're all just a bunch of communist sympathizers because we're atheists. Then we get hit for not wanting to give all our stuff away and being in love with money. Can't win!

[Minimalist]

Not a new problem.

How many religious people have been willing to give up everything?

“I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay hands on everything they can get.”

― Napoléon Bonaparte