Fun! looks like someone wants a lesson in context!!!
(November 4, 2015 at 5:57 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: jesus:
Among the sheep and goats who both call Jesus Lord, the group who serves Jesus by feeding the brethren in need, clothing them, and giving them water, goes to heaven. The other group who calls Jesus Lord but who fails to provide such charity are, as a consequence, sent to "eternal fire." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Matt. 25:32 et seq.). A faith that ignores the poor brethren is "dead" and "cannot save." (James 2:14-17.) "Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Matt. 7:19.)
paul:
Anyone who "shall call" on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:13.)
First off Romans 10:13 is not a stand alone verse:
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?
So here clearly we see Paul is speaking more that just literally speaking the words of verse 13. (see what happens when you put stuff back into context?) Paul say we must first believe, then in verse 14 he says it is not possible to call of the name of Christ in the proper way without belief. So then we need to see what is meant by the word 'belief' because again just because we translate a work from the Koine to English, does not mean the common usage of the English word is what is being communicated.
So the greek word is: πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102;
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
So again we ask what is faith (Because the word faith may have meant something then) or rather saving faith in this context? Faith in is not mentioned in this passage I highlighted, but it is mentioned in one verse prior, that word is:
πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/rom/10/1/s_1056008
And since you brought up James 2 we need now reconcile Paul's use of the word with James' because you can see they are using the same word which would mean the principle is indeed the same.
14 My brothers and sisters, if a person claims to have faith but does nothing, that faith is worth nothing. Faith like that cannot save anyone. 15 Suppose a brother or sister in Christ comes to you in need of clothes or something to eat. 16 And you say to them, “God be with you! I hope you stay warm and get plenty to eat,” but you don’t give them the things they need. If you don’t help them, your words are worthless. 17 It is the same with faith. If it is just faith and nothing more—if it doesn’t do anything—it is dead.(James 2:14-17.)
One more time, This "Faith"/πίστις pístis found in James 2 is the Same Greek Word found in Paul's work in romans that means the word how ever it is used is meant to be used the same way in romans and in James 2
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jas/2/1/s_1148014
So together (reconciling everything the bible has to say on this) one must have a saving faith, (Which according to James 2 requires at least a willingness to work) After one is Saved because as He said a Faith without works is dead. Meaning if their are no works to show for one's faith, then one never "Call out to God and was saved" as Paul put it.
Paul, no where in his writing was communicating the use of a loop hole catch all phrase that can be used to get someone into heaven by trying to avoid work. We know this is what Paul meant as well because in Romans 10 starting @ verse 14 Paul describes the 'work' it takes to bring the gospel to people.
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
And We also know Paul also tasked us to share the Gospel in the very block of text as well. So we are saved by calling on the Name of the Lord. But according to Paul (in context) we can not call on the name of God unless we believe. As we looked up, his word for belief requires Faith, the same word/Faith James used to describe what a saving Faith requires in Chapter 2 of His book. (Work, or at least a willingness to work after your salvation is a key "fruit" to the faith required to Call on the Name of Christ) Which when you read Paul's completed contextual work concerning "Calling out to the Lord and being saved" verse 15 Requires someone preaching the good news." which again triggers this whole process.
confused? Simply put we are not saved because of our works. We are saved because of our faith, a active faith that will move when prompted. verses a dead faith that is manifest in idle belief only. It is the difference in faith in the idea that a parachute will work in principle, and strapping one on and jumping out of a plane. Both have faith, but if a plane is crashing only one is saved. To put it another way It takes faith to be saved from a crashing plane with a parachute. Not just faith in how the chute works, but faith/work needed to put it on and jump out of the plane.
This is the active faith Paul is describing in a specific instance in Romans 10 and what James and Jesus out right defined.
Quote:This is permanent, and no condition subsequent can be put on this that you must be charitable or have fruit thereafter.
This would be true if Romans 10 stopped at verse 13, but again it does not. 14 forward decribes an active faith. one who is sent out and teaches the gospel.
Quote:Otherwise, it is salvation by works. (Romans 4:4, 14; Eph. 2:8-9.) Hence, it cannot be true that if the goats, in fact, ever once called on the name of the Lord that they should be sent to hell. James' statement that paraphrases the principle of Matthew 25:32 et seq. contradicts Paul, and we are not to believe even an angel from heaven if he should contradict Paul. (Gal. 1:8.)
Even better, Romans 4 Paul explains EXACTLY How Faith and works are balanced.
9 Is this blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have already said that it was because of Abraham’s faith that he was accepted as one who is right with God. 10 So how did this happen? Did God accept Abraham before or after he was circumcised? God accepted him before his circumcision. 11 Abraham was circumcised later to show that God accepted him. His circumcision was proof that he was right with God through faith before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the father of all those who believe but are not circumcised. They believe and are accepted as people who are right with God. 12 And Abraham is also the father of those who have been circumcised. But it is not their circumcision that makes him their father. He is their father only if they live following the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Do you see? Faith saves first, but we work as a sign of our faith. (Going back to what James said in conjunction the lack of work shows a dead faith) Paul defines this better in eph 2, but for the sake of this study I want to show you Paul in contextually teaching faith and works side by side here in the book of Romans.
Quote:* as you can see jesus said salvation is through works and repenting to God , but paul claimed that salvation was through faith in jesus *
The only way one can say that is if they cherry pick scraps of paul's works and piecemeal them all back together out of their original context, and read it all through as if those scraps of verses were what Paul originally wrote... Oh, wait that's EXACTLY what you did.. Now look at what I did. I took just one of those verses and reframed it in it's original context, and even took your passage in James that looked like it was saying the oppsite and showed you Paul in context was in agreement.
That is what I mean by reconciling these passages so the all read or speak to the same.
Quote:jesus:
Salvation is based on God forgiving your sin. If you do not forgive others after you receive forgiveness, God will revoke your forgiveness and send you to hell to be tormented. (Matt. 18:28-35; cf. Matt. 6:12.)
paul:
Salvation is not contingent on your forgiving others. Salvation only has one condition: a one-time faith. (Romans 4:4.) If you ever once had faith (Romans 10:9), you are no longer able to be condemned. (Romans 8:1.)
Wow.. Just wow. I have never seen some one just out right lie about what the bible says before. your not even quoting the verse scrap properly. Paul never mentions salvation is not contingent on forgiving others...
romans 4:4When people work, their pay is not given to them as a gift. They earn the pay they get.
romans 10:9
9 If you openly say, “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from death, you will be saved.
Which again Paul's use of the word is not consistant with your misuse of the word.
Romans 8:1
8 So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty.
You representation of Romans 4:4, 10:9, and 8:1 is an outright lie/mischaracterization of the passage and it's contextual meaning. Your summary of the passage does not even closly reflect what the verse fragment actually says...
Did you just plagerize this from some website or did you actually intentionaly lie on your own?
What kind of broken mind knowingly changes the wording of a text, and then charges the author with not being in line with what Christ taught??
Honestly if you know, you had to completely lie about what Paul wrote, then you must know your argument defeats its self right? if so why post it? Did you honestly think you could lie about this and have me try defend your lie? Or did you not fact check what you plagerized?
Salvation could not possibly depend on any works of repentance. Salvation is by faith alone. (Eph.2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.)
8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about.
And so where does Paul say 'belief' begins and ends with how you are using the word?
Paul in romans 10 and in Romans 4 well defines his definition of Faith and belief. He shows we are saved by our Faith, and as a result of this salvation right along side that we are to do good works. Now I have tried to keep this in the book of Romans as that is what this thread is about and I am trying to establish that the whole of the gospel is contained here, but if you want to be hard headed I can also quote Eph 2:8 I mean that you have been saved by grace because you believed. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. 9 You are not saved by the things you have done, so there is nothing to boast about. 10 God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us new people so that we would spend our lives doing the good things he had already planned for us to do.
Clearly here Paul like James Jesus defines the roles of Faith in relation to works. Where HONEST people get confused in romans is Paul is trying to apply the lessons here to a philosophy that someone who knows nothing about Jesus/Christianity can understand, and from their build. In essence you are trying to take an unfinished concept and apply it to the full teachings of James and Christ. Clearly Paul is on board with James and Christ as I have shown you over and over the elements of 'work' are evident through out his teachings, and are infact with your 'faith alone passages.' but again Your use of the word 'faith and belief' in the English do not reflect the usage of the words in the greek when one puts these words back into their contexts.
Quote:jesus:
To have eternal life, follow the Ten Commandments, deny yourself (i.e., repent and do works worthy of repentance) and then follow Jesus. If you give up fathers, mothers, and brothers for Jesus, deny yourself, take up your cross, and "follow Me," you "shall have eternal life." (Matthew 19:27-29; Matthew 10:37-39; John 12:25-26.)
More lies...
what is wrong with you?
mat 19:27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life. 30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.
In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says: a ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'""All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (through works)
paul:
To have eternal life, say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe He is resurrected. (Rom. 10:9.) Do not add any work. "Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt."(Rom. 4:4.) If salvation depends on keeping the Law, then salvation by faith is made void. "[I]f they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void..." (Rom.4:14.) In Romans 3:20, Paul says: “For no one is put right in God’s sight by doing what the Law requires; what the Law does is to make man know he sinned.” (through faith)
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So yeah, the rest of this is bunk.. aside from "Lie quoting" text. Your interpretation does not reconcile the passages the full passages I posed out of romans nor what Paul says in Eph 2.
