The Tower of Babel

[The Grand Nudger]

You mean you can't get into heaven by being a good person?  It's all about how many hosannas you shout? Sounds like a shitty place. Tell you what, I'm gonna go ahead an stick with the folks trying to be good people, you can cast your lot with whomever you like.

This, btw, very naive - if only it were true- in the case of humans -or- gods.

If they Love one another than they naturally do things to make the other happy...

When you become an adult, Huggy, you're going to have a hard time with that one - I'm sure you'll manage, but it won't be easy. Speaking of which, does anyone else get the distinct impression, when talking to certain types of christians, that they are having a discussion with children, intellectually and emotionally? To me, that's one of the more unfortunate parts of religions legacy. We've dumbed things that -are- important to us down to such a point that many seem to be incapable of even considering them seriously, let alone reaching any conclusion or settling upon some agreed knowledge. There's nothing left but hallmark cards and scripture...and there isn't much difference between between those two.

[robvalue]

Yes, I get that feeling. The religious ideas often seem to trap people in the state of a child who will say anything to keep their fantasies alive. Most likely, the ideas were planted there while they were a child, and they haven't developed since then because there is no truth to them. They have just developed more and more ways to rationalise the beliefs to themselves rather than challenge them.

[Huggy Bear]

You mean you can't get into heaven by being a good person?  It's all about how many hosannas you shout?  Sounds like a shitty place.  Tell you what, I'm gonna go ahead an stick with the folks trying to be good people, you can cast your lot with whomever you like.

This, btw, very naive - if only it were true- in the case of humans -or- gods.

According to the law you aren't a good person.

If a person takes something that doesn't belong to them, that makes them a thief according to the law "human or god". A criminal by definition, is not a good person.

If you've ever told a lie (which pretty much everyone has) you are a liar and guilty according to the law, and law requires a penalty. So no matter how good you think you are, that lie has made you a criminal (sinner), and deserving of punishment.

I have to break it down in simple terms because you apparently don't understand the concept of law or grace, and how it applies to the old and new testament.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're confusing legality with morality.  People are convicted of crimes, they are not convicted for being "bad people". Being a "bad person" is not a crime, and doing a "bad thing" is not, as much as we may want it to be, illegal.

Here, in our country, no lie I might have ever told is enough to warrant the sentence your god has decreed - because we, as reasonable and compassionate beings...have determined that the punishment must fit the crime. Your god is neither reasonable nor compassionate, and obviously this "punishment befitting the crime" business is nonsense to him. It;s just blood, blood, blood, and more blood, no matter what. Go, be with him, move to his country, where he writes the laws...stop dawdling around here...if you think that he has a better thing going. Why are we even having this discussion, and why are you still here?

[Minimalist]

"In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so." - Immanuel Kant

Kant was a philosopher - not a lawyer.

[Cyberman]

Stealing one thing or telling one lie makes you a sinner - so does one act of charity or telling one truth make a person a saint? See, prechewed Ray Cumfart won't stick here. We prefer our food thought through properly.

[Huggy Bear]

You're confusing legality with morality.  People are convicted of crimes, they are not convicted for being "bad people".  Being a "bad person" is not a crime, and doing a "bad thing" is not, as much as we may want it to be, illegal.

Are you down to arguing semantics? Is a rapist a good person, yes or no? Is a murderer a good person, yes or no? Is a thief a good person, yes or no?

Here, in our country, no lie I might have ever told is enough to warrant the sentence your god has decreed - because we, as reasonable and compassionate beings...have determined that the punishment must fit the crime.  Your god is neither reasonable nor compassionate, and obviously this "punishment befitting the crime" business is nonsense to him.  It;s just blood, blood, blood, and more blood, no matter what.  Go, be with him, move to his country, where he writes the laws...stop dawdling around here...if you think that he has a better thing going.  Why are we even having this discussion, and why are you still here?

Really? What about the guy that got a life sentence for stealing a donut? Does that punishment fit the crime? Reason and compassion have nothing to do with the law, which is why it's depicted as wearing a blindfold, it's impartial.

how many tames have you heard a Judge say that their hands were tied because the law demanded a certain sentence?

The same goes for the law of God, there is no compassion, only justice. If the penalty for sin is death, then his hands are tied, if you commit sin, you die, period.

But through the grace of Jesus Christ you are exempted from the penalty of death.

[Huggy Bear]

Stealing one thing or telling one lie makes you a sinner - so does one act of charity or telling one truth make a person a saint? See, prechewed Ray Cumfart won't stick here. We prefer our food thought through properly.

Is there anything in the law that rewards good behavior? no.

Being a "saint" has nothing to do with "works".....

[Cyberman]

Then nor should being a "sinner". You can't have it both ways.

[The Grand Nudger]

Are you down to arguing semantics? Is a rapist a good person, yes or no? Is a murderer a good person, yes or no? Is a thief a good person, yes or no?

Look at you, trying to control the responses to your vapid questions.  Are you that worried that it will all crumble if people don't stay within the lines you've prepared?  You should be.  I don't know whether or not any of them are good people, I only know that they have all, ostensibly, committed crimes. I hear Robin Hood was pretty decent, but he's a theif...so....?

Really? What about the guy that got a life sentence for stealing a donut? Does that punishment fit the crime?

Link me the case, I have to see this one, lol.  I'd hate to think you're full of shit...............

Reason and compassion have nothing to do with the law, which is why it's depicted as wearing a blindfold, it's impartial.

If you think that law has nothing to do with reason, okay. If you think law has nothing to do with compassion, okay. I don't see the need to argue the points with you.

how many tames have you heard a Judge say that their hands were tied because the law demanded a certain sentence?

The same goes for the law of God, there is no compassion, only justice. If the penalty for sin is death, then his hands are tied, if you commit sin, you die, period.

But through the grace of Jesus Christ you are exempted from the penalty of death.

Sounds like a charade to me. Glad we have a better legal system. Seriously though, why are we still discussing this, shouldn't you be packing?