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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:00 am
(December 2, 2015 at 12:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well there's no way to prove one way or the other whether outlawing abortion would save any lives or not... though I really think it would. I think a lot of women would not want to get them if it was more socially understood and accepted that it's a human being in there.
History does not support this claim. If a woman is desperate enough to kill what she damn well knows will be a baby in a few months (regardless of what it is right now), she'll risk her own life to do it. I can't believe you aren't aware of this? You can look for contemporary examples, even. Ireland, for example. Rich women just go to the UK and have it done (12 a DAY!!! That's a documented fact.) Poor women take toxins or stab themselves in the uterus with coathangers, or go to dirty doctors and get butdhered and die of septis. Also fact.
It's not pretty.
Social change is the way to reduce abortions. Raise up the poor, better education (sex education in particular, but also in general) and more access to birth control. These things have already actually reduced abortions, despite them being legal.
It takes more work than just writing a law, though. Or having an opinion.
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:04 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2015 at 1:07 am by robvalue.)
Tibs: Do you think abortion should be illegal? If so, how would you implement this?
It only came to me yesterday that I'd class a fetus as a parasite. For some reason, it's hilarious. Of course I'm not trying to equate its importance with some eye-worm, just that it has similar properties.
CL: One last point. It seems to me that you are against the very best tool for reducing abortions: contraception.
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:07 am
It's getting late here so I'll do the next round of responses tomorrow, but I thought I'd address something which I believe someone brought up a few pages back, and it's a common argument I've heard used.
It's usually in response to the anti-abortion argument that embryos are humans, and it basically goes "human cells are not human beings, therefore embryos are not human beings. If human cells were human beings, cutting someone's hair / scratching someone / <insert similar example here> would be murder".
My response is this:
I agree, human cells =/= human beings, but human beings are a collection of human cells. The entire collection is called a human being. If you lose a few cells here or there, you're slightly less of a human being in terms of number of cells, but you're still a human being (and those cells are usually easily replaced). Killing a few cells from a human isn't murder, because those few cells don't equate to the human being as a whole, but when the human being is in it's earliest developmental form, when the entire human being is a few cells, killing them is killing the entire human being.
That's the difference.
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:09 am
(December 2, 2015 at 1:00 am)Aroura Wrote: (December 2, 2015 at 12:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well there's no way to prove one way or the other whether outlawing abortion would save any lives or not... though I really think it would. I think a lot of women would not want to get them if it was more socially understood and accepted that it's a human being in there.
History does not support this claim. If a woman is desperate enough to kill what she damn well knows will be a baby in a few months (regardless of what it is right now), she'll risk her own life to do it. I can't believe you aren't aware of this? You can look for contemporary examples, even. Ireland, for example. Rich women just go to the UK and have it done (12 a DAY!!! That's a documented fact.) Poor women take toxins or stab themselves in the uterus with coathangers, or go to dirty doctors and get butdhered and die of septis. Also fact.
It's not pretty.
Social change is the way to reduce abortions. Raise up the poor, better education (sex education in particular, but also in general) and more access to birth control. These things have already actually reduced abortions, despite them being legal.
It takes more work than just writing a law, though. Or having an opinion.
My bold.
I definitely agree with that too, btw.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:14 am
I've always been fascinated by the social implications of abortion.
One of my favorites, was when some politician said Children of Rape are a blessing from God. And predictably, there was immediate backlash.
The fun part, is that there are living people who were children born of rape, and they got to watch the notion that they are a blessing from God be treated as an outlandish idea deserving of scorn and ridicule. Which had to feel good for them.
It's the same trick with Down Syndrome. We were going to have a person like you, so we aborted it, and tried again for one not like you. Tough not to imply you think people with DS are inferior with that mindset.
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:15 am
(December 2, 2015 at 1:04 am)robvalue Wrote: Tibs: Do you think abortion should be illegal? If so, how would you implement this?
It only came to me yesterday that I'd class a fetus as a parasite. For some reason, it's hilarious. Of course I'm not trying to equate its importance with some eye-worm, just that it has similar properties.
CL: One last point. It seems to me that you are against the very best tool for reducing abortions: contraception.
I would argue that the best tool for reducing abortion is abstinence and saving sex for marriage. 
Anyway, about contraception, I'm against them for myself and personally my husband and I used fertility monitoring for years to avoid pregnancy. But I am in no way against contraception being legal and used by people who have no moral objection to it.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:25 am
CL: Ah OK, well I'm glad to hear that 
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:33 am
Seriously: if there were more people like Catholic_Lady, I'm pretty sure we'd have a 3rd Great Awakening.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:56 am
(December 2, 2015 at 12:32 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well there's no way to prove one way or the other whether outlawing abortion would save any lives or not... though I really think it would. I think a lot of women would not want to get them if it was more socially understood and accepted that it's a human being in there.
CL if abortion was well you know abolished death from births would rise.
Some people need to get a abortion because their lives are on the line.
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RE: Attack at Planned Parenthood Clinic
December 2, 2015 at 1:58 am
(December 2, 2015 at 1:33 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Seriously: if there were more people like Catholic_Lady, I'm pretty sure we'd have a 3rd Great Awakening.
:Thinking: we need more nice christians in the world like CL
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