US Muslims struggle with condemnation

[paulpablo]

You do condemn those things don't you?  Do you think you shouldn't?

Sometimes I do. Other times I don't know about the incident.

However, at no time have I had a microphone stuck in my face and been asked to condemn racial violence committed by another white man on a cable news network. It wasn't expected that I should be a spokesman. That double-standard is the point of my post

If you were part of the same organization that white person claimed to be a member of you might be asked those sorts of questions by people wanting to know what your view of the groups beliefs were.

Remember this is a religion not a race, you weren't raised to be a white man and there's no white man belief system, so it's slightly different circumstances.

But say if you were to go ahead with that analogy, I'm sure throughout American history it's very common, especially these days, to have a vast vast VAST amount of white people who will put themselves at risk, sometimes even their lives at risk, for the sake of racial equality in America and for black civil rights and so on.

But in western countries you do get Muslims saying "These aren't real Muslims." but I don't know if there's a level of total outrage. I don't know if many Muslims are going over there to fight ISIS, I think more of them are going over to abroad to fight FOR ISIS rather than against them.

I agree that not all Muslims should have to make a public apology but some genuine non forced condemnation goes a long way I think, on the one hand it is relieving to see a lot of Muslims condemning ISIS. On the other hand it's scary that all you have to do is interpret a book a different way and you could end up joining ISIS.

A positive example was in the news today involving a knife attack and a Muslim bystander shouted out something like "You ain't muslim bruv, you're an embarrassment." And that's slightly encouraging, it wasn't forced it was just a reaction.

A negative example would be when someone I know was talking to a Muslim who I also know, saying to him something like "They don't like homosexuality in Islam do they? They can be executed in some of those Islamic places."  And the Muslim who is usually talkative about most topics just flatly said "Yeh."  And It was just a feeling I got but the silence after that was a bit awkward.

I'm not saying that proves he's homophobic, but if that was me and someone said "Hey Paul, a lot of atheists are left wing communists."  The very first thing I would do is explain I don't have much interest in Communism and I don't really politically swing on either left wing or right wing.  And I don't even condemn Communists but I'd be quick to point out false associations with me being an atheist just out of the principle of it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's a bit long for me to address properly from my phone. Give me a couple of hours to get home and settled, if you could please?

[Minimalist]

Many moons ago I had a job at the service desk of a local appliance store.  I was expected to apologize for shoddy manufacturing, shoddy installation or stupid consumers who could not be bothered to read the instruction manual, none of which I had anything to do with.  "I'm sorry" is about the most useless of platitudes for someone who is not involved.
I wasn't sorry in the least that the installer was drunk.  (Yes, that actually happened.)

[paulpablo]

That's a bit long for me to address properly from my phone. Give me a couple of hours to get home and settled, if you could please?

Yeh, I sympathize with the phone dilemma, I might be in bed by the time you reply though.

[Gormo]

It might help clarify the issue somewhat if the response wasn't seemingly muted... but I can't think of any specific reason they are obligated to.

Demanding this kind of thing otherwise we will assume they are with the terrorists isn't a terribly honest or fair preposition.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's a bit long for me to address properly from my phone. Give me a couple of hours to get home and settled, if you could please?

Yeh, I sympathize with the phone dilemma, I might be in bed by the time you reply though.

No problem, thanks for your patience.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you were part of the same organization that white person claimed to be a member of you might be asked those sorts of questions by people wanting to know what your view of the groups beliefs were.

Remember this is a religion not a race, you weren't raised to be a white man and there's no white man belief system, so it's slightly different circumstances.

Certainly, but that's not the dynamic in play here; the dynamic is in-group versus outgroup. That's exactly why the media asks any Muslim for their opinion on the matter, as if they all view the Koran in the same manner. They don't, especially here in America.

But say if you were to go ahead with that analogy, I'm sure throughout American history it's very common, especially these days, to have a vast vast VAST amount of white people who will put themselves at risk, sometimes even their lives at risk, for the sake of racial equality in America and for black civil rights and so on.

But in western countries you do get Muslims saying "These aren't real Muslims." but I don't know if there's a level of total outrage.  I don't know if many Muslims are going over there to fight ISIS, I think more of them are going over to abroad to fight FOR ISIS rather than against them.

To be fair, while, say, during our American civil rights movement in the 60s, while there were certainly whites who were involved in it, the overwhelming majority of whites were either apathetic about the matter, or actively opposed to the movement. And more to the point, once the individual had shown his sincerity to the movement, he wasn't asked to speak out about every transgression against blacks, as if his opinion were representative -- although a portion of the American public took solace in their words, no doubt.

I agree that not all Muslims should have to make a public apology but some genuine non forced condemnation goes a long way I think, on the one hand it is relieving to see a lot of Muslims condemning ISIS.  On the other hand it's scary that all you have to do is interpret a book a different way and you could end up joining ISIS.

I certainly agree that interpretation being as subjective as it is means that extremism can make -- and has made -- headway. However, there are plenty of non-forced condemnations of plenty of terrorist attacks, that get little coverage here in America at least.

A positive example was in the news today involving a knife attack and a Muslim bystander shouted out something like "You ain't muslim bruv, you're an embarrassment." And that's slightly encouraging, it wasn't forced it was just a reaction.

A negative example would be when someone I know was talking to a Muslim who I also know, saying to him something like "They don't like homosexuality in Islam do they? They can be executed in some of those Islamic places."  And the Muslim who is usually talkative about most topics just flatly said "Yeh."  And It was just a feeling I got but the silence after that was a bit awkward.

Well, no one likes to be confronted with the internal contradictions of their own belief system. That's not to excuse his terseness, but I could think of several reasons he might be so circumspect aside from silent agreement in the matter. Perhaps he was ashamed of it, and didn't want to have to address his sharing a common bond of holy book and holy rituals. Perhaps he felt he was being asked to answer for views he didn't hold, but didn't want to cause a scene. Perhaps he was worried about his girlfriend.

I'm not saying that proves he's homophobic, but if that was me and someone said "Hey Paul, a lot of atheists are left wing communists."  The very first thing I would do is explain I don't have much interest in Communism and I don't really politically swing on either left wing or right wing.  And I don't even condemn Communists but I'd be quick to point out false associations with me being an atheist just out of the principle of it.

I hear you; I face that same sort of thing insofar as I'm a somewhat conservative atheist, and like you in your hypothetical, under certain circumstances I do pick up the cudgel and start hammering home points. But at other times, I don't have the time or inclination to educate others on the flaws they carry in their assumptions about me. Knowing that I don't speak for any atheist but myself, I make that decision by myself under the circumstances; and I'm happy to extend that benefit of the doubt to Muslims, and treat them as the individuals they are.

Thanks again for your patience and understanding.

[Catholic_Lady]

What the HELL! Muslims own religious community (at least part) does not think they need to/should condemn terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam? That condemnation will give Muslims/Islam a bad reputation?

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ea4601441...-extremism

Quote: "A younger generation is especially impatient with the condemnations of Islamic extremism from Muslim groups after every attack. They argue that the statements merely reinforce false notions that Muslims are collectively responsible for the violence."

Quote:"At a Georgetown University event last month on anti-Muslim bias, speaker Linda Sarsour said she struggled with Muslims who take part in such news conferences. "It reinforces the fallacy that I have something in common with" the Islamic State group...........".

You do, it's called RELIGION. All religions need to step up and condemn any criminal acts (terror, murder, fraud, molestation, .........) committed in that religions name or by someone in that religious community. Yeah, you to xtians.

I agree with this completely. When someone goes around and starts killing people in the name of their ideology, those who share that person's ideology have a duty to stand together and condemn that person. Denounce the acts and make it very clear that it is not what we stand for. Maybe it will help prevent more people from that same ideology from thinking they too should do such heinous things.

When the attack at PP happened, the first thing I did was address it and condemn it on my social media, and with my Christian friends when the issue came up. They all agreed with me of course, but one of them used the excuse that he was just some deranged guy living in the woods without electricity, rambling incoherently while shooting at people who didn't even have anything to do with PP, and that it was done because he's crazy not because he's Christian. I say it doesn't matter if he was crazy. Nut case or not, he still killed 1 cop and 2 innocent civilians, supposedly due to his Christian stance against abortion, and we still have a duty to stand against it and denounce it every chance we get. Even if the person who did it was insane. 

As for the few people on twitter who actually did support him (as reported by BuzzFeed), they should be arrested and interrogated. Zero tolerance for terrorist type talk like that.

[Catholic_Lady]

Sometimes I do. Other times I don't know about the incident.

However, at no time have I had a microphone stuck in my face and been asked to condemn racial violence committed by another white man on a cable news network. It wasn't expected that I should be a spokesman. That double-standard is the point of my post

If you were part of the same organization that white person claimed to be a member of you might be asked those sorts of questions by people wanting to know what your view of the groups beliefs were.

Remember this is a religion not a race, you weren't raised to be a white man and there's no white man belief system, so it's slightly different circumstances.

But say if you were to go ahead with that analogy, I'm sure throughout American history it's very common, especially these days, to have a vast vast VAST amount of white people who will put themselves at risk, sometimes even their lives at risk, for the sake of racial equality in America and for black civil rights and so on.

But in western countries you do get Muslims saying "These aren't real Muslims." but I don't know if there's a level of total outrage.  I don't know if many Muslims are going over there to fight ISIS, I think more of them are going over to abroad to fight FOR ISIS rather than against them.

I agree that not all Muslims should have to make a public apology but some genuine non forced condemnation goes a long way I think, on the one hand it is relieving to see a lot of Muslims condemning ISIS.  On the other hand it's scary that all you have to do is interpret a book a different way and you could end up joining ISIS.

A positive example was in the news today involving a knife attack and a Muslim bystander shouted out something like "You ain't muslim bruv, you're an embarrassment." And that's slightly encouraging, it wasn't forced it was just a reaction.

A negative example would be when someone I know was talking to a Muslim who I also know, saying to him something like "They don't like homosexuality in Islam do they? They can be executed in some of those Islamic places."  And the Muslim who is usually talkative about most topics just flatly said "Yeh."  And It was just a feeling I got but the silence after that was a bit awkward.

I'm not saying that proves he's homophobic, but if that was me and someone said "Hey Paul, a lot of atheists are left wing communists."  The very first thing I would do is explain I don't have much interest in Communism and I don't really politically swing on either left wing or right wing.  And I don't even condemn Communists but I'd be quick to point out false associations with me being an atheist just out of the principle of it.

I agree with every word of this. Well said. As a Christian I will be sure to stand up in condemnation towards any mofo who kills people because of his Christian beliefs.

[brewer]

We had this in another thread. Why are muslims supposed to appologize for every action their radicals do? Did anyone ask christians to distance themselves from Brejvik? For the other nutters, shooting up abortion clinics or doctors? Why the double standards? Were jews called out when Barruch Goldstein shot up a mosque?

Short answer, if you're not affiliated with certain actions, you shouldn't be called out. You had no part in it, so you're not guilty by association.

I didn't say apologize. I didn't say call out. I didn't say guilty by association.

Brievik's actions were condemned:http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/08/08/comp...o-attacks/
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/ch.../28324.htm
http://www.worldmag.com/2011/08/blasphemous

Jews were called out, Goldsteins actions were condemned: http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespot...n-massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Gol...Haberman-5
http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/baruch_goldstein
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/01/world/...wanted=all

Pro lifers condemn abortion clinic shootings: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/p...ims-94611/
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/p...ims-94611/

If a self professed atheist commits a act of atrocity in the name of atheism I'm certainly going to condemn it. Not being in the public eye, I may not be asked but that does not stop my condemnation.