So is crucifiction a bad or a good thing?

[brewer]

It was all just a plot by God to get Bach to write some awesome dramatic music, as far as I am concerned.

You left out Handel. Sending all available Morons your way.

[Minimalist]

"Quirinus" was a Sabine god adopted by the Romans (they did a lot of that).  He was a state god who was not killed/resurrected.

Graves' work is an example of 1870's "scholarship" at its worst.  It does not need to be "disproved" since it was never established in the first place.

[Whateverist]

Lets find out! Here is an experiment you can do at home. All you'll need are some sturdy posts -but you can also use some pre-existing structure like a fence or part of a building you can drive a few long spikes into. Next you'll need some strong cord, possibly a gag and most importantly, a younger sibling. Once you have assembled all needed materials we'll get started. Go!

[The Valkyrie]

I wish the whole "reinterpreting" and rewriting of the bible never happened.

It's like Chinese Whispers.

Judas gets Jesus Laid in Jerusalem becomes,
Jesus Gets Nailed in Jerusalem becomes,
Jesus is Crucified and died for your sins and you have to accept him as your lord and master or you'll burn for eternity.

Nice one, Judas!!

[Brian37]

Because on one hand, you get christians acting like it's the single most horrible thing in the world to happen to anyone, that it's the most anyone could suffer (ignoring all the people before and after Jesus who died the same way because reasons) etc., with the RCC charging the entirety of Jewish people with deicide for a long time, but on the other hand, that was all god's plan, it was necessary and we should be grateful for it because it was the only way to go to heaven, it had to happen??

Which is it ffs??

No it is not a good thing. It is just a story, but as far as morals go it is bad. First off the God character set up the entire game without mutual consent from anyone, humans are basically his lab rats. Now while the idea of "forgiveness" in reality can be good without the superstition, the story takes your own autonomy away from you and puts it in the hands of a third party. Nobody has the right to tell me whom I have to forgive or that others have to forgive me. That does not mean revenge is a response, it just means I have the right to part company with someone if they hurt me.

On top of that not even being a real "sacrifice". According to the story, he doesn't stay dead, and not only subjects himself to the cross, does so for his own glorification, because God/Jesus are the same being. Alot like John Hinkley shot Reagan to get the attention of Jody Foster. 

A "sacrifice" in reality is when you do something without expectation of attention, or fame or reward. The D-Day soldiers were a real sacrifice. They went in not seeking personal fame. Most served without gaining personal fame and those who died did not come back from the dead.

The way the death story reads reads more like a stalker con artist doing a parlor trick to gain attention. The reason Christians fall for this story is because it is sold as as an underdog story, that allows the believer to ignore the way the literary character is written.

[CapnAwesome]

The dying and rising god myth was ancient around the Mediterranean long before a scruffy little tribe of El worshipers who avoided eating pork ever came on the scene.   Kersey Graves listed 16 crucified "saviors" who pre-dated Jesus of Nazareth:

• Thulis of Egypt, 1700 B. C.[5]
  
  
• Chrishna of India, 1200 B.C.
  
  
• Crite of Chaldea, 1200 B.C.[6][7]
  
  
• Atys of Phrygia, 1170 B.C.
  
  
• Thammuz or Tammuz of Syria, 1160 B.C.
  
  
• Hesus or Eros 834 B.C.
  
  
• Bali of Orissa, 725 B.C.[8]
  
  
• Indra of Thibet (Tibet), 725 B.C.
  
  
• Iao of Nepaul (Nepal), 622 B.C.[9][10]
  
  
• Buddha Sakia (Muni) of India, 600 B.C.[11]
  
  
• Mitra (Mithra) of Persia, 600 B.C.
  
  
• Alcestos of Euripides, 600 B.C.
  
  
• Quezalcoatl of Mexico, 587 B.C.
  
  
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese, 552 B.C.[12]
  
  
• Prometheus or Æschylus of Caucasus, 547 B.C.
  
  
• Quirinus of Rome, 506 B.C.
  

  Carrier challenged some of Graves' work but never managed to disprove it.  The book claims that a number of these deities or god-men shared at least some traits of Jesus as described in the New Testament, drawing the strongest similarities with Krishna. For example, some figures had miraculous or virgin births, were sons of supreme gods, were born on December 25, had stars point to their birthplaces, were visited by shepherds and magi as infants, fled from death as children, exhibited traits of divinity in childhood, spent time in the desert, traveled as they taught, had disciples, performed miracles, were persecuted, were crucified, descended into hell after death, appeared as resurrections or apparitions, or ascended into heaven. 

It was a story so old that everyone knew it.  There is a report by an early historian (sorry, can't find it, will keep looking) about some people scoffing at early Christians, saying "we didn't believe that about ____, why should we believe the same thing about this Jew?"  Crucifixion, virgin birth, miracles, etc., were all required by the story.

Oh, and yes, I looked up Graves' work on Wikipedia for the list and description.

I did a random checking of those links and didn't find a crucifixion story in any 6 or 7 I randomly clicked on, including Krishna, who supposedly was killed by an arrow shot by a hunter by mistake. Why claim something with links that don't even back up what you are saying?

[drfuzzy]

---

 The dying and rising god myth was ancient around the Mediterranean long before a scruffy little tribe of El worshipers who avoided eating pork ever came on the scene.   Kersey Graves listed 16 crucified "saviors" who pre-dated Jesus of Nazareth:

• Thulis of Egypt, 1700 B. C.[5]
  
  
• Chrishna of India, 1200 B.C.
  
  
• Crite of Chaldea, 1200 B.C.[6][7]
  
  
• Atys of Phrygia, 1170 B.C.
  
  
• Thammuz or Tammuz of Syria, 1160 B.C.
  
  
• Hesus or Eros 834 B.C.
  
  
• Bali of Orissa, 725 B.C.[8]
  
  
• Indra of Thibet (Tibet), 725 B.C.
  
  
• Iao of Nepaul (Nepal), 622 B.C.[9][10]
  
  
• Buddha Sakia (Muni) of India, 600 B.C.[11]
  
  
• Mitra (Mithra) of Persia, 600 B.C.
  
  
• Alcestos of Euripides, 600 B.C.
  
  
• Quezalcoatl of Mexico, 587 B.C.
  
  
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese, 552 B.C.[12]
  
  
• Prometheus or Æschylus of Caucasus, 547 B.C.
  
  
• Quirinus of Rome, 506 B.C.
  

  Carrier challenged some of Graves' work but never managed to disprove it.  The book claims that a number of these deities or god-men shared at least some traits of Jesus as described in the New Testament, drawing the strongest similarities with Krishna. For example, some figures had miraculous or virgin births, were sons of supreme gods, were born on December 25, had stars point to their birthplaces, were visited by shepherds and magi as infants, fled from death as children, exhibited traits of divinity in childhood, spent time in the desert, traveled as they taught, had disciples, performed miracles, were persecuted, were crucified, descended into hell after death, appeared as resurrections or apparitions, or ascended into heaven. 

It was a story so old that everyone knew it.  There is a report by an early historian (sorry, can't find it, will keep looking) about some people scoffing at early Christians, saying "we didn't believe that about ____, why should we believe the same thing about this Jew?"  Crucifixion, virgin birth, miracles, etc., were all required by the story.

Oh, and yes, I looked up Graves' work on Wikipedia for the list and description.  

---

I did a random checking of those links and didn't find a crucifixion story in any 6 or 7 I randomly clicked on, including Krishna, who supposedly was killed by an arrow shot by a hunter by mistake. Why claim something with links that don't even back up what you are saying?

You're right.  I only read a few articles and scanned Graves' book, I did not fact-check ANY of the list.  The Krishna arrow does surprise me, though - I thought that I had read a "pinned to a tree" story about him.   I should have checked that list - I apologize to AF.  Mistakes like that might lead some folks to discount the fact that the "dying and rising god" myth is far older than Judaism . . . not good scholarship on my part.  

[Regina]

Seeing the title of this thread out of context;

[Minimalist]

Graves confused the dying/resurrected vegetation god of the Ancient Mediterranean with the later savior cults which came along...including jesusism.  That myth - explaining why the plants die in winter and are reborn in spring was significant to an ancient farming culture...which all of them were perhaps with the exception of the Phoenicians who were traders but even they had to eat.

Things evolved slowly in the ancient world but they did change.  This book might be of some help to you.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pj6Pll...ts&f=false

Starts on the second paragraph of the page and continues to the so-called "mystery cults."  Carrier asserts that xtianity certainly began as one of them until they started writing shit down which can be attributed to the noted "heretic" Marcion.

Anyway, enjoy.

[Cyberman]

Again, Judas was fulfilling the role appointed for him.  Who the hell are YOU to sneer at Judas for his absolutely vital role in the salvation of mankind?

Judas - named, remember, for political reasons to condemn the whole Jewish people - is the bible's Jessica Rabbit: "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way."