If Allah has a plan, what is the point of Dua?

[robvalue]

If we don't get any say in anything that happens, I'd say it's not about us at all. It's a theatre for God.

What do you mean he has won? Won what?

[WinterHold]

If we don't get any say in anything that happens, I'd say it's not about us at all. It's a theatre  for God.

What do you mean he has won? Won what?

I can understand you, being offended, if that was a human-council that you weren't invited to attend.
God is not human. 

Winning in the ridiculous tale Satan wrote and accused the God with; fooling people to believe that there is actually a war between him & God; while in reality : God already created life, earth, saw what would happen, made Satan, knew his sin; the tale is about Satan's misery and psychological tantrums, but he is a hell of a whisperer, just like he did to our ancestors, he tries to blindfold the truth through fairy tales.

[ReptilianPeon]

The Shaytan is way more powerful than I am and Allah expects me to.do battle with them? Does Allah think all humans are like Superman? But by saying the plan is inevitable you're saying there is no free will. So why would I pay? My suffering isn't going to be any less than if I didn't pray.

Allah didn't have to create the Shaytan. Humans can still be tested without the Shaytan. But also why create anything at all? What does Allah gain from having a creation?

[Brian37]

First Allah [swt] hasn't determined everything per my belief. For example, he is yet to know the patient and those who strive hard among people, although there are some people who he knew very well their path and hence chose them as Prophets and Guides because of the test in a previous world.

Second of Allah [swt] works with the system as is. I pray for example that we find solutions to the problems we are facing in the world like the problems I learned about in political science ( I studied it for two years in university).

I pray to Allah [swt] as is. And I pray that he works through his chosen Guide and his friends, in ways that will help bring peace to the world and stability.

And I pray for guidance, will power, and sight seeing power, and other stuff.

I don't pray for God to act in a way that goes against the way of the system he has put in place.

No sorry, you are moving the goal posts. 

I'd say if you are going to assign the attribute of "all powerful" you can very easily being all powerful determine everything before it happens and make it happen that way. And the act of praying defies any sense of trust you claim to have in this alleged being. If you claim your god knows what he is doing, why are you making any attempt to beg for a change in that plan?

MK Muslims are also not the only ones who fail to consider the broken logic of this "all powerful" God. We have the same objections when Christians and Jews make the same arguments.

Now the reality, and I really do wish you would consider it. Is that you are not defending a real being, but looking for reasons to cling to bad claims. The logic simply is not there for you to make it work the way you want it to.

You are fishing for excuses to cling to what you want to be true. 

"Jesus has a plan" when a Christian prays also defies the idea of a plan on top of not really trusting this god Christians would claim is real.

If you assign "all powerful" to this claimed deity, there should be no reason for it to need humans help at all. The fact you even pray or make claims on it's behalf is a huge red flag that this god doesn't really exist. It is absurd to me to think of something "all powerful" to need a advertising department or public relations department. And just as absurd to think this being would need humans to beg to it just so this god can get attention for itself.

[The Inquisition]

I don't know if this point carries the same weight in Islam, but if god didn't answer the prayers of all the people that die from hunger, cancer, natural disasters, etc. Then why would he answer your particular prayer? How is what you want any more important than what all of those others want?

This god is either:

1. A capricious little prick that randomizes his answers to prayer.

2. Or nonexistent, post hoc rationalizations notwithstanding.

[Brian37]

If we don't get any say in anything that happens, I'd say it's not about us at all. It's a theatre  for God.

What do you mean he has won? Won what?

I can understand you, being offended, if that was a human-council that you weren't invited to attend.
God is not human. 

Winning in the ridiculous tale Satan wrote and accused the God with; fooling people to believe that there is actually a war between him & God; while in reality : God already created life, earth, saw what would happen, made Satan, knew his sin; the tale is about Satan's misery and psychological tantrums, but he is a hell of a whisperer, just like he did to our ancestors, he tries to blindfold the truth through fairy tales.

So you claim, and so what.

Let me clue you in on reality. Allah is not real, Islam is simply a splinter sect of Christianity. Christianity is simply a splinter sect of Hebrew. And Hebrew is simply a splinter sect of Canaanite polytheism.

The polytheists set the stage for the monotheism of Abraham. Yahweh was a lesser god in a divine family who had the he god El who was the lead god in the family "council".

There is no monotheistic cosmic council anymore than the Canaanites had an entire family of gods running things. I get that you really like what you believe and we get that you really want Allah to be real. But that isn't because Allah is real. You believe it because you lack the evolutionary scientific understanding that our species perceptions of reality are notoriously flawed. 

We don't doubt your sincerity of what you want to be true. We do doubt your perception of reality. It was understandable in antiquity that humans would invent both polytheistic gods, and monotheistic gods because they didn't have our modern scientific knowledge of the world.

[robvalue]

I'm not offended Atlas, it's just that what you're saying makes no sense. If we have no free will, we are puppets who have been forced to experience events over which we have no control. I'm sure he gave himself good reasons when he had a meeting with himself.

Since God has all the power, he instantly wins anything he wants to win. I could be the MMA champion if I had magic powers to make anyone fall over on the floor unconscious just by thinking it. But it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment.

He made Satan too, and decided everything Satan would do. So Satan is just as much a puppet, and a scapegoat to make God feel better about all the suffering he planned.

Again I'm not offended, because none of this is real. It's just weird that you find this one sided Punch and Judy show something to marvel at. The more people try to explain God, the more he sounds like a prize cock.

[Brian37]

I'm not offended Atlas, it's just that what you're saying makes no sense. If we have no free will, we are puppets who have been forced to experience events over which we have no control. I'm sure he gave himself good reasons when he had a meeting with himself.

Since God has all the power, he instantly wins anything he wants to win. I could be the MMA champion if I had magic powers to make anyone fall over on the floor unconscious just by thinking it. But it wouldn't be much of an accomplishment.

He made Satan too, and decided everything Satan would do. So Satan is just as much a puppet, and a scapegoat to make God feel better about all the suffering he planned.

Again I'm not offended, because none of this is real. It's just weird that you find this one sided Punch and Judy show something to marvel at. The more people try to explain God, the more he sounds like a prize cock.

I am "offended". Just not in a xenophobic bigoted way. The bad use of logic offends my reason, but as long as someone is non violent, their mere existence and making claims I don't find to be credible is a separate issue.

I wish humans worldwide would simply be brave in looking in the mirror and be unafraid to ask themselves "Is this really something true, that I need, or is it merely something I like?"

You ask a Buddhist if the religions of others are credible, they'll say the same thing a Christian or Muslim or Jew "They have the right to believe what they want". You ask a Christian the same thing "They have the right to believe what they want". You ask a Jew the same thing "They have the right to believe what they want".

Humans do not to a wide enough degree, understand the difference between the legal right to make any claim you want, and that is a given as it should be, and the separate issue of the ability to demonstrate the credibility of the position you hold to be true.

Religion assumes as a default position that it is true. Better logic is when you observe and collect data without assuming, compare and test and falsify with control groups, then hand  your findings over for independent peer review.

Unless one is willing to take their personal bias out of it, and let the claim be put under scrutiny, it can only remain an opinion, it should never be considered a universal fact.

[robvalue]

I'm not sure what I'd describe my emotion as. Frustration, I suppose, when I can see faulty thinking keeping someone mentally trapped. No one's ever going to convince me of anything while they use broken logic, but I feel empathy as to what rejecting proper logic is doing to some people.

But when emotions are concerned, the conclusion is often pre-drawn and then the brain rationalizes. Whether or not it manages to do so logically is of secondary concern to the person. I know, I do it myself. I decide, emotionally, I want to do something. Then I fabricate ludicrous reasons why I should do it, if there aren't any good ones. Sometimes I stop myself and say, "Hey Rob, that's fucking stupid." And sometimes I do it anyway, because I want to, regardless of if I can think of a logical reason.

I'm talking about harmless things here, and addressing my inner critic as to how I should be spending my time etc. But I feel the same mechanism would apply beyond that.

[Brian37]

I'm not sure what I'd describe my emotion as. Frustration, I suppose, when I can see faulty thinking keeping someone mentally trapped. No one's ever going to convince me of anything while they use broken logic, but I feel empathy as to what rejecting proper logic is doing to some people.

But when emotions are concerned, the conclusion is pre-drawn and then the brain rationalizes. Whether or not it manages to do so logically is of secondary concern to the person. I know, I do it myself. I decide, emotionally, I want to do something. Then I fabricate ludicrous reasons why I should do it, if there aren't any good ones. Sometimes I stop myself and say, "Hey Rob, that's fucking stupid." And sometimes I do it anyway, because I want to, regardless of if I can think of a logical reason.

I'm talking about harmless things here, and addressing my inner critic as to how I should be spending my time etc.

QUOTE " I'm not sure what I'd describe my emotion as. Frustration, I suppose, when I can see faulty thinking keeping someone mentally trapped."

Both. You can be both frustrated by bad logic and frustrated that they cant see what it is doing to them needlessly. I think while it may not work every single time. It can snap people out of a delusion if you tell them, you are not trying to physically hurt them or outlaw what they say, but trying to help them. Theists have a hard time considering that we don't need the help, they do.

I want better for humans, and how we assess claims matters.