Possible and impossible

[robvalue]

That's one of the things that scares me about religion, self delusion is actually rewarded. Being unable or unwilling to critically assess your own experiences is rewarded. And believing at face value other people's fantastical stories is encouraged.

It's all completely the opposite to what I think should be happening.

[ApeNotKillApe]

That's humankind in a nutshell - doing the opposite of what they should be doing.

[Old Baby]

Growing up in Pentecostalism, I believed that being baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues was not only legit but important. My problem was always that I didn't want to look like a fool doing what those other spirit-filled fools were doing, e.g. running the aisles, crawling/crying, dancing/screaming. I was told that this was my pride and that I would have to give this to God, so I tried. I REALLY tried to speak in tongues and actually worked myself into an emotional state, but no tongues. I was really depressed over this and talked to the pastor who said that I just needed to open my mouth and start making noise and have faith that this was God. Then, I was told I needed to practice it every day and my language would get better. I continued in the faith for another 10-15 years, but I never tried to speak in tongues again. I was certain that this was nothing more than well-meaning self deception.

[drfuzzy]

Growing up in Pentecostalism, I believed that being baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues was not only legit but important.  My problem was always that I didn't want to look like a fool doing what those other spirit-filled fools were doing, e.g. running the aisles, crawling/crying, dancing/screaming.  I was told that this was my pride and that I would have to give this to God, so I tried.  I REALLY tried to speak in tongues and actually worked myself into an emotional state, but no tongues.  I was really depressed over this and talked to the pastor who said that I just needed to open my mouth and start making noise and have faith that this was God.  Then, I was told I needed to practice it every day and my language would get better.  I continued in the faith for another 10-15 years, but I never tried to speak in tongues again.  I was certain that this was nothing more than well-meaning self deception.

Very similar experience to mine, Old Baby.  I simply COULDN'T speak in tongues . . . I knew that I was making up gibberish.  I didn't have any of the experiences people were describing, none of the feelings, none of the messages from god, nothing.  And I knew, even then, as a pre-teenager, that either it was all delusion - - or I wasn't good enough.  Of course, I chose the latter and ran with it for years.  
    Between that and trying to look up "homosexuality" in a xtian school library in the early 1970's . . . here are the roots of my breaking free.  I knew at the time that (at least most) of these people were lying about their experiences to look good to their peers.  I saw the shame and pity heaped upon those who wouldn't play the game.  I saw the pride and posturing of those who were being complimented for their stories and "spirit-filled" behavior.  And I saw preacher after preacher being sent away for sexual misconduct - usually with a minor.  Looking back, it's a little sickening.

[Old Baby]

Growing up in Pentecostalism, I believed that being baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues was not only legit but important.  My problem was always that I didn't want to look like a fool doing what those other spirit-filled fools were doing, e.g. running the aisles, crawling/crying, dancing/screaming.  I was told that this was my pride and that I would have to give this to God, so I tried.  I REALLY tried to speak in tongues and actually worked myself into an emotional state, but no tongues.  I was really depressed over this and talked to the pastor who said that I just needed to open my mouth and start making noise and have faith that this was God.  Then, I was told I needed to practice it every day and my language would get better.  I continued in the faith for another 10-15 years, but I never tried to speak in tongues again.  I was certain that this was nothing more than well-meaning self deception.

Very similar experience to mine, Old Baby.  I simply COULDN'T speak in tongues . . . I knew that I was making up gibberish.  I didn't have any of the experiences people were describing, none of the feelings, none of the messages from god, nothing.  And I knew, even then, as a pre-teenager, that either it was all delusion - - or I wasn't good enough.  Of course, I chose the latter and ran with it for years.  
    Between that and trying to look up "homosexuality" in a xtian school library in the early 1970's . . . here are the roots of my breaking free.  I knew at the time that (at least most) of these people were lying about their experiences to look good to their peers.  I saw the shame and pity heaped upon those who wouldn't play the game.  I saw the pride and posturing of those who were being complimented for their stories and "spirit-filled" behavior.  And I saw preacher after preacher being sent away for sexual misconduct - usually with a minor.  Looking back, it's a little sickening.

That mirrors my experience in many ways.  My grandmother was a spirit-filled Pentecostal who led worship and would frequently break out spontaneously in tongues and dancing.  If someone else started speaking in tongues, she would yell louder to drown them out while mixing in some weeping and body convulsions.  People who didn't really know her thought she was some kind of a spiritual giant.  Being her grandson, I knew that when she wasn't speaking in unknown tongues, she was typically using her foul mouth to spread gossip and disfavor for those who she didn't care for.  She was such an insecure woman that she even ran my mother down to me just so that I would like her better.  She even conspired against my father, who was the church pastor, because he wouldn't let her lead worship.  She's still alive but I've had nothing to do with her for the last 6 years, despite being her favorite grandson, and I don't expect I'll ever see her or talk to her again.

The thing that kept me believing was really my father, because even if 99% of these people were fake, I believed in my dad.  I still believe in my dad's sincerity, and I think he is far more honest than 99% of the church, even if he chooses to bury his head so deep in the sand/scripture to keep from having to deal with science or admit that God has gotten smaller and smaller and more obscure for all of his attempts to get to know him.

[Crossless2.0]

When I used to attend Pentecostal services with my first wife's family (no, I wasn't one of them but attended out of love for my wife and her family because it was REALLY important to them that I go), I always noticed that the tasks of speaking in tongues and providing the "interpretation" were separate tasks carried out by two or more people. Even then, I thought, "What a nice hustle. Everyone can play and no one is really responsible for being right or even honest."

I've long thought it would be interesting to conduct an experiment using several different Pentecostal churches. Plant some people in the various churches; have them attend long enough (and seemingly enthusiastically enough) that they become trusted members of their respective parishes. Then in each church have the plants "speak in tongues" -- each repeating the same carefully rehearsed nonsense to phonetic perfection -- and record the "spirit-guided" interpretations to see how widely they diverged. Then share the results with the pastors and congregations to watch them go into panicked, righteous-fury damage control.

[Old Baby]

When I used to attend Pentecostal services with my first wife's family (no, I wasn't one of them but attended out of love for my wife and her family because it was REALLY important to them that I go), I always noticed that the tasks of speaking in tongues and providing the "interpretation" were separate tasks carried out by two or more people. Even then, I thought, "What a nice hustle. Everyone can play and no one is really responsible for being right or even honest."

I've long thought it would be interesting to conduct an experiment using several different Pentecostal churches. Plant some people in the various churches; have them attend long enough (and seemingly enthusiastically enough) that they become trusted members of their respective parishes. Then in each church have the plants "speak in tongues" -- each repeating the same carefully rehearsed nonsense to phonetic perfection -- and record the "spirit-guided" interpretations to see how widely they diverged. Then share the results with the pastors and congregations to watch them go into panicked, righteous-fury damage control.

That would be interesting.

Once, I was going to this really "spiritual" Pentecostal church where someone gave a message in tongues.  Then, a husband and wife both started talking at the same time to give the interpretation.  They both got about 5-6 words in, then the wife stopped and said "sorry" and the husband continued to give the interpretation.  What's more interesting is that the first half dozen words the wife blurted out were different than those of her husband.

[robvalue]

Thanks for sharing those stories. I've never seen someone in person doing any of that stuff, and it sounds scary. They are basically encouraging you to act totally deranged? And if you do it long enough, and get praised for it, you start believing it's something special rather than you screwing around I suppose. But it sounded like you guys were too sceptical to ever buy into it.

[drfuzzy]

Yep Rob . . . it was called "being filled with the Spirit".   I never felt it.

And I'm afraid I have derailed this thread . . . sorry . . . OP was about needing to prove god, or something . . . 
But before I leave the "speaking in tongues" topic, I seem to recall being shown a film (in the early 70's) that "proved" the person on film speaking in tongues was actually speaking Sumerian, or Akkadian, or something like that.  Of course, I can't find that study.  
Some Pentecostal websites still claim it.  Here's a quote from one:  "Sometimes, the tongues spoken are reported to be real, known tongues of today. Most often, it's of unusual tongues such as Basque, Berber, Albanian, or one of the Caucasus Mountain or Bushman languages, though Finnish is also common."  http://www.spirithome.com/tongues1.html

I prefer the sites that present real science about glossolalia, though.  http://www.skeptical-science.com/religio...eal-story/

[Cecelia]

Actually I would argue the example in the opening post is in fact impossible.

One cannot have absolute certainty that their revelations come from an all-knowing all-powerful god. There are plenty of other possibilities that aren't considered.