The Christian God Does Violate Human Free Will

[Rhondazvous]

That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

Let's see how that holds up in court.

"Hey, so what if I occasionally kill some insignificant little twat? That doesn't mean I'm not an over all good guy."

And why does god have to be good? He just has to be god. If you don't like it then like Moses you can kiss his ass.

Defending the god of the bible always boils down to defending the indefensible.

[robvalue]

Yup. Replace the "god" character with a human, and he'd instantly be branded the most evil man who ever lived, even by Christians.

But it's OK, because he's "god".

I'd have thought that would make him accountable to a higher standard, not a lower one. But what do I know. I'm just the guy who killed god.

[Rhondazvous]

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

So what? because he manipulated the situation to enable himself to murder children.

Well, he didn't murder any fetuses. Murder after birth doesn't count.

[Rhondazvous]

I can't really see the problem here. We have completely free will.

Either we kiss Sky-Daddy's arse for eternity, or we suffer unspeakable torments forever and ever - we are all completely free to choose either option.



And if we make some heinous mistake like wearing woven fabrics, eating shellfish or being attracted to members of our own sex, why, we obviously deserve to burn in hell!

Actually, we don't. Not for me anyway and those like me. According to Paul (Hebrews 6:4-6) if you taste the red pill you can't go back to the blue pill.

I experienced all that god has to offer. But I found it insufficient and I will not go back to believing things I now know are untrue. According to this passage this is not according to my free choice, but an impossibility.

You might as well say it's impossible for me to go back to believing in Santa Claus. Wcwn noq, I always sleep with the covers over my head because everybody knows the boogieman can't get you when you're under the covers. Doesn't that mean the boogieman is stronger than Yahweh because we an never completely stopped believing in him.

[Mr.wizard]

Yeah, there are several explicit cases of God affecting people's free will in the bible. The Pharoah one is the most prominent and ridiculous. God sent plagues because he wanted to send plagues, but justified it to himself by forcing a man to be stubborn. What a dickmonkey.

The idea of God "having a plan" also does not fit with free will. Either the plan is so vague that any outcome will count as the plan succeeding, or else I have the choice to screw with the plan. How is he going to remedy my interference without overriding other people's free will, or getting personally involved and messing with stuff? Either way, it makes a laughing stock of his plan.

Lets not forget Heaven, there will be no sadness in heaven, so god just creates a kingdom of blissful zombies? The idea that my mother ( a believer) would be in heaven and overjoyed that her son ( an evil atheist) would be burning hell, does not jive at all with who my mother is. So god has not only taken away her free will but also her personality, free will my ass!

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Isn't this a tacit admission that humans have the freedom to chose one or the other?  If we have freedom to choose, we have free will, no?

Boru

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Where they allowed to 'choose one another?' from time to time yes (given the right owner.)

As such we (some of us) have been given this same 'freedom.'

If you look at human History this right to 'choose one another' is not an intrinsic Human right.

You can't have it both ways. You claimed that Jesus says there is no free will, now you're making the case for free wiil.

The question isn't whether free will is a human right, but whether, in the context of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-creating God, free will is even possible.

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Maybe ya'll are just choosing not to be believe in free will?  Or perhaps you just don't believe in it because the initial conditions of the universe made you to not do so?

Precisely the point.

Maybe you missed it when I asked last time: Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 in respect to free will.

Boru

[robvalue]

Do slaves have 'free will?'

Where they allowed to 'choose one another?' from time to time yes (given the right owner.)

As such we (some of us) have been given this same 'freedom.'

If you look at human History this right to 'choose one another' is not an intrinsic Human right.

You can't have it both ways. You claimed that Jesus says there is no free will, now you're making the case for free wiil.

The question isn't whether free will is a human right, but whether, in the context of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-creating God, free will is even possible.

Boru

More contradictory beliefs?

[Rhondazvous]

Some of the more esoteric franchises of theism try to get round this by creating a distinction between 'moral evil' and 'natural evil'.  For example, willful sinning (theft, adultery, murder, perjury, and so forth) are moral evils, because humans have the option to not engage in this behaviour.  When, on the other hand, your village of fisherfolk is buried in a mudslide, this is a natural evil, which means it was going to happen irrespective of human choice.

This has always struck me as pretty ad hoc.  If natural evils don't violate free will, then why do preachers of all stripes consign earthquakes, mudslides, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis and the like to 'God's will' or 'God's plan'?  If God plans for me to get struck by lightning, and God is the causative agent of moral law, then - not only is my free will violated - but the so called 'natural evil' immediately becomes 'moral evil'.  There is no effective difference between the two.

Boru

This is idiocy. The whole point of their argument is to absolve god from all responsibility and make humans responsible. The idea of natural evil defeats their whole purpose.

Oh wait, don't tell me. God is not responsible for natural evil because Paul says the creation was cursed for Adam's sake.

Like we say about Californians, if you build your house over a crack in the earth, it's your own fault.

We won't mention that holding me and the whole world responsible for someone else's sin is a violation of my free will in itself.

[Rhondazvous]

You know, folks. There's one point where I'm leaning to the radical atheist side. And this is it.

Some of us discussing the free will issue, as if there really was a divine entity enforcing it. It's men made like everything else in religion.

And here's why I take issue with that. Think, I said it before at some point in another thread. If there's the appearance of discussing god's actions, it opens opportunities for that theist talking point of us just being angry at god.

We realize that, abaris. I can't speak for everyone, but I feel no need to change the way I express things out of worrying what theists will say. They're going to grab for straws no matter what we do or don't do.

The author had her character the good fairy, who doesn't really exist give a fictional prophecy that the character designated as the beautiful princess (and btw, we realize that beauty is subjective so calling her a beautiful princess is in no way indicative of our opinion about her physical attractiveness, which she cannot have because she doesn't exist) would prick her non existent finger and according to the author fall asleep for 100 years. DISCLAIMER: We are fully aware that the fairytale Sleeping Beauty is entirely fictional and our recounting of the fictional events in that story does not in any way mean that we believe any part of it is historically true.