(February 26, 2016 at 6:35 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: And on a side note. Yahweh "hardened Pharaoh's heart" on several occasions when he was ready to free the Hebrews. If that isn't violating someone's free will, what is?

That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists. They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

(February 26, 2016 at 8:48 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(February 26, 2016 at 6:35 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: And on a side note. Yahweh "hardened Pharaoh's heart" on several occasions when he was ready to free the Hebrews. If that isn't violating someone's free will, what is?

That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

Yahweh hardening Pharaoh's heart never made any sense. He wants him to let Moses and his people go, but he apparently also was really set on giving Egypt a bunch of plagues. Even still, he could have given Egypt plagues AFTER the Hebrews left Egypt. Would it have been a dick move? Yes. But so was the flood.

Yahweh: Oh no, Pharaoh is going to do what I told him to do. Better harden his heart so he won't do what I want him to do, so he can do what I want him to do later.

Yeah, there are several explicit cases of God affecting people's free will in the bible. The Pharoah one is the most prominent and ridiculous. God sent plagues because he wanted to send plagues, but justified it to himself by forcing a man to be stubborn. What a dickmonkey.

The idea of God "having a plan" also does not fit with free will. Either the plan is so vague that any outcome will count as the plan succeeding, or else I have the choice to screw with the plan. How is he going to remedy my interference without overriding other people's free will, or getting personally involved and messing with stuff? Either way, it makes a laughing stock of his plan.

(February 27, 2016 at 12:42 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 26, 2016 at 8:48 pm)IATIA Wrote: That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

So what? because he manipulated the situation to enable himself to murder children.

(February 27, 2016 at 12:42 am)ChadWooters Wrote: So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

Did you state anything of significance there? No.

(February 27, 2016 at 12:42 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 26, 2016 at 8:48 pm)IATIA Wrote: That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

How do you determine which choices a man makes for himself and which choices your god makes for him? How do you differentiate your god's will from free will?

And why do you appeal to the principle of free will at all when you acknowledge that it is abrogated freely by the god you claim values it?

(February 27, 2016 at 12:42 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 26, 2016 at 8:48 pm)IATIA Wrote: That is one of the several issues that are never answered by the theists.  They skip right by it and the others, changing the subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis).

So what? Just because He occasionally makes someone do something doesn't undermine the whole system. That's just irrational all-or-nothing thinking. Even if you're not in control of every decision, you're still accountable for the choices you actually do make.

1.  How do you know these choices aren't foreordained by God?  If God created everything, then he created the choices we make, as well as the outcomes of those choices.

2.  Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 in light of free will.

Boru

I can't really see the problem here. We have completely free will.

Either we kiss Sky-Daddy's arse for eternity, or we suffer unspeakable torments forever and ever - we are all completely free to choose either option.



And if we make some heinous mistake like wearing woven fabrics, eating shellfish or being attracted to members of our own sex, why, we obviously deserve to burn in hell!

Is not every single occurrence that lies outside of human control a violation of free will? Any random dirtbag that gets struck by lightning is an impenetrable argument against human agency.