Free will and humans

[Jehanne]

Ask me this, can I write an algorithm to accomplish an impossible task? Like get to moon in one jump?
Yes. Of course I can. You can't seem to figure it out because you are thinking one dimensionally

Yes, we are consciousness, however, does such prove that we have free will?  No, hardly; natural selection is "nature's algorithm," and yet, it is not something that nature figured out.  Natural selection is algorithmic, and yet, it is still a mindless process.  Determinism is a bottom-up philosophy more than a top-down one; from almost limitless studies on brain injured patients, to those who are on medications and/or drugs, to the conservation laws of nature, free will does not exist because free will can not exist.  To say that it does means that all of modern physics is wrong.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Ask me this, can I write an algorithm to accomplish an impossible task? Like get to moon in one jump?
Yes. Of course I can. You can't seem to figure it out because you are thinking one dimensionally

Yes, we are consciousness, however, does such prove that we have free will?  No, hardly; natural selection is "nature's algorithm," and yet, it is not something that nature figured out.  Natural selection is algorithmic, and yet, it is still a mindless process.  Determinism is a bottom-up philosophy more than a top-down one; from almost limitless studies on brain injured patients, to those who are on medications and/or drugs, to the conservation laws of nature, free will does not exist because free will can not exist.  To say that it does means that all of modern physics is wrong.

Pahaha oh plis dolan.
Right now, I'm feeling like taking a shit. But I can choose not to and go watch power puff girls. Or I can choose to do some Nakamichi or some shadow boxing.
But hey, I think I'll take a shit.
But I don't have free will right? I *had* to decide to take a shit else I'd have broken every laws of physics and broke our universe

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Saying our universe is pre determined is like praying.
If you get what you pray for, then God.
If you don't get what you pray for then still God.

Likewise,
If I decided to take a shit then universe is pre determined.
If I've decided not to take a shit then universe is still pre determined.

Riddle me this, how would a universe that's not pre determined would look like?

[comet]

wish I had to balls to make claims of certainty. In something other than "I am not sure" that is.

[Jehanne]

Yes, we are consciousness, however, does such prove that we have free will?  No, hardly; natural selection is "nature's algorithm," and yet, it is not something that nature figured out.  Natural selection is algorithmic, and yet, it is still a mindless process.  Determinism is a bottom-up philosophy more than a top-down one; from almost limitless studies on brain injured patients, to those who are on medications and/or drugs, to the conservation laws of nature, free will does not exist because free will can not exist.  To say that it does means that all of modern physics is wrong.

Pahaha oh plis dolan.
Right now, I'm feeling like taking a shit. But I can choose not to and go watch power puff girls. Or I can choose to do some Nakamichi or some shadow boxing.
But hey, I think I'll take a shit.
But I don't have free will right? I *had* to decide to take a shit else I'd have broken every laws of physics and broke our universe

You believe that you have free will, and so do I; it's the "first person" narrative that we all possess.  When you are "on the pot", you will also believe that you are sitting there motionless, even though modern Science has irrevocably discovered the fact that you'll be "pooping" at a speed far, far greater than that of the speed of sound; that you and your turds conserve angular momentum in such a very precise way that each turd lands exactly in the toilet, irrespective of the fact that its velocity, with respect to the center of the Earth, is well over 1,000 kilometers per hour or its 30 kilometers per second velocity with respect to the Sun or 220 kilometers per second with respect to the Galaxy and even greater velocities with respect to the local Universe.

Absurd?  And, therefore, "not true"; that's the argument that Saint Robert Bellarmine made to Galileo over 400 years ago.  Now, whether to poop or to watch TV is governed by competing sets of neurons, and I can guarantee you, that, eventually, biology will have its way, and you'll shit, sooner or later, regardless of whether you "want to" or not.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Pahaha oh plis dolan.
Right now, I'm feeling like taking a shit. But I can choose not to and go watch power puff girls. Or I can choose to do some Nakamichi or some shadow boxing.
But hey, I think I'll take a shit.
But I don't have free will right? I *had* to decide to take a shit else I'd have broken every laws of physics and broke our universe

You believe that you have free will, and so do I; it's the "first person" narrative that we all possess.  When you are "on the pot", you will also believe that you are sitting there motionless, even though modern Science has irrevocably discovered the fact that you'll be "pooping" at a speed far, far greater than that of the speed of sound; that you and your turds conserve angular momentum in such a very precise way that each turd lands exactly in the toilet, irrespective of the fact that its velocity, with respect to the center of the Earth, is well over 1,000 kilometers per hour or its 30 kilometers per second velocity with respect to the Sun or 220 kilometers per second with respect to the Galaxy and even greater velocities with respect to the local Universe.

Absurd?  And, therefore, "not true"; that's the argument that Saint Robert Bellarmine made to Galileo over 400 years ago.  Now, whether to poop or to watch TV is governed by competing sets of neurons, and I can guarantee you, that, eventually, biology will have its way, and you'll shit, sooner or later, regardless of whether you "want to" or not.

So let me get this straight, you're right because despite so many difficulties I can land my poop inside my toilet.

That's a very compelling argument Jen,I wonder how I'm going to refute this

[Jehanne]

So let me get this straight, you're right because despite so many difficulties I can land my poop inside my toilet.

That's a very compelling argument Jen,I wonder how I'm going to refute this

What is a compelling argument is that there are many biological states that you do not have control over; when you are asleep, you do not have "free will" over your heart rate and/or your respiration.  Those are things which your brain does for you, to keep you alive, and it accomplishes these autonomic tasks via the constant firing of neurons in your brain stem and throughout the various lobes in your brain.  And, yet, you assert that you have "free will" to make certain choices and not others, an illusion which all of us share.  However, if you would experience a lesion in your frontal lobes, your personality would be changed and your "free will" would be compromised; you would lose the ability to make sound, rational decisions.  You would still be able to take tests, formulate algorithms, etc., but your decision-making ability would be changed, for the worse.  Everyone around you would notice it, from your spouse to your parents to your friends to your co-workers; in fact, you may even lose your job, get arrested, go into bankruptcy, etc., all because you experienced a lesion via an accident, stroke, unintentional drug exposure, etc.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

So let me get this straight, you're right because despite so many difficulties I can land my poop inside my toilet.

That's a very compelling argument Jen,I wonder how I'm going to refute this

What is a compelling argument is that there are many biological states that you do not have control over; when you are asleep, you do not have "free will" over your heart rate and/or your respiration.  Those are things which your brain does for you, to keep you alive, and it accomplishes these autonomic tasks via the constant firing of neurons in your brain stem and throughout the various lobes in your brain.  And, yet, you assert that you have "free will" to make certain choices and not others, an illusion which all of us share.  However, if you would experience a lesion in your frontal lobes, your personality would be changed and your "free will" would be compromised; you would lose the ability to make sound, rational decisions.  You would still be able to take tests, formulate algorithms, etc., but your decision-making ability would be changed, for the worse.  Everyone around you would notice it, from your spouse to your parents to your friends to your co-workers; in fact, you may even lose your job, get arrested, go into bankruptcy, etc., all because you experienced a lesion via an accident, stroke, unintentional drug exposure, etc.

Yeah nice try, I already explained how that line of reasoning is bull.
Tell me this Jen, do you think a ball inside a fence have freedom of movement?

[Redbeard The Pink]

What does "free will" even mean to an atheist? If it's merely the ability to make choices about our actions, why wouldn't you just call that "choice?"

If it's the ability to decide whether to believe in God (the way theists usually mean it), then that doesn't exist either. To believe something, one must be convinced. Belief, despite all claims to the contrary, is not a choice.

When I was convinced that Yahweh exists, I wanted to stop believing at various times, but I couldn't because I thought there were good reasons for believing he did exist. Now that I'm convinced he does not exist, I can't start believing again without good reason. "Choosing" to believe something is the same as pretending.

[Jehanne]

Yeah nice try, I already explained how that line of reasoning is bull.
Tell me this Jen, do you think a ball inside a fence have freedom of movement?

No, I don't; I think that the ball is governed by physical law alone.  Do you believe that someone with Alzheimer's can "freely choose" to recall their childhood memories?  Or, do you think that they are "choosing" to forget the names of their children and grandchildren, or, the fact that they even have children or grandchildren?  Or, how about people who have stroke damage to the Broca area of the brain?  Do you think that they are "choosing" not to utter intelligible speech?  How about patients who have split-brain and whose left hand is fighting with their right over which dress to wear for the day?  Were is "free will" for that person?

You claim that "free will" is the ability to make "Choice A" (go to the bathroom) or "Choice B" (watch television), and yet, if you had demetia, you may "choose" to walk outside naked; is such an act of your "free will"?  Should such individuals be arrested and locked-up?

If you say that free will does not exist in a sick brain, what evidence can you produce that it exists in a healthy one?  Or, are healthy brains simply the sum of a bunch of well-formed neural nets from a healthy, nourishing and loving childhood into a well-functioning and healthy adulthood where the individual is seen to be making rationale choices, because that is what healthy brains do?!