Posts: 4535
Threads: 175
Joined: August 10, 2009
Reputation:
43
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 10:01 am
(March 11, 2011 at 9:44 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Omnipresent God is present in all things. So, if He exists and you're aware of absolutely anything at all, you're then also aware of Him because He is present in everything that you are aware of.
That doesn't work, to say that because something is supposedly present in everything yet you are not aware of it then it does not exist would be equally applicable to people with awareness of material objects prior to atomic theory - By your reasoning they could conclude that atoms don't exist because they are present in all things and yet outside of their awareness.
.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 10:24 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 10:25 am by Edwardo Piet.)
No, if atoms didn't exist then the things we are aware of are things not made up of atoms. So we are aware of the absence of atoms.
Since atoms do exist, as long as humans have existed we have been aware of things that have contained atoms, so in that sense we've always been aware of atoms, but we've never been aware of their separate existence until much more recently. So in that sense we've only been aware of atoms much more recently.
Posts: 4535
Threads: 175
Joined: August 10, 2009
Reputation:
43
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 11:13 am
That wasn't the point, it was that your lack of awareness of a deity who is present in all things is no more reason to presume he doesn't exist than the lack of awareness in atoms is reason to presume they don't exist.
.
Posts: 471
Threads: 36
Joined: March 10, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 11:18 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 11:20 am by Zenith.)
(March 11, 2011 at 10:24 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Since atoms do exist, as long as humans have existed we have been aware of things that have contained atoms, so in that sense we've always been aware of atoms that's the same as saying that people have always been aware of bacteria and viruses, because they have been ill since the beginning. BUT they didn't know it was micro-organisms there. So they were aware that there were no micro-organisms causing the diseases, by blaming others as causes, so their 'awareness' was wrong.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 11:19 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 11:22 am by Edwardo Piet.)
I'm not saying it's a reason to presume he doesn't exist. I'm saying it the other way around. I'm saying that since an omnipresent deity probably doesn't exist, I'm probably aware of things - know of things - where the deity is absent rather than aware of things with a deity present in them.
(March 11, 2011 at 11:18 am)Zenith Wrote: that's the same as saying that people have always been aware of bacteria and viruses, because they have been ill since the beginning.
No, that isn't the same thing because all the things that people were aware of before they discovered atoms were still made up of atoms. That isn't the case with bacteria.
Posts: 471
Threads: 36
Joined: March 10, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 11:23 am
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 11:30 am by Zenith.)
I think it depends on what you understand of "awareness" and the object/thing you are "aware" of. A religious man that studied psychology is more aware or how people are, than an atheist who didn't, for instance.
But, if it's about the awareness of God: if God doesn't exist, then you are more aware that He doesn't exist than a religious man. And vice-versa: if God exists, a religious man is more aware of God's existence than you are.
You can't separate the "awareness" of the object/thing you are or are not aware of.
Posts: 4535
Threads: 175
Joined: August 10, 2009
Reputation:
43
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 12:04 pm
DvF, your conclusion and your reasoning are one in the same...
.
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 3:16 pm
I agree with DeeVee (damnit!!)
GIVEN God = omnipresent, then everything is God. His existence is proven, given the premise. You don't need to be aware of any extra hidden element as with atoms. All of it is God.
Posts: 471
Threads: 36
Joined: March 10, 2011
Reputation:
7
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 3:39 pm
(This post was last modified: March 11, 2011 at 3:43 pm by Zenith.)
(March 11, 2011 at 3:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I agree with DeeVee (damnit!!)
GIVEN God = omnipresent, then everything is God. His existence is proven, given the premise. You don't need to be aware of any extra hidden element as with atoms. All of it is God.
no, if God is everywhere it doesn't mean He's everything.
To know what I mean... let's take a ghost - I don't care if you believe in ghosts or not, the idea is that you've heard about them and have an idea what's told about them: a ghost can be in the same place you are, and even pass through you. Yet, that doesn't make the ghost be you! If the ghost gets in the same place a wall is, it doesn't mean the ghost is the wall. The same with God: if He is everywhere, it doesn't mean He's everything.
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: I know that there are no gods.
March 11, 2011 at 4:55 pm
God isn't everything, he's in everything... or he couldn't be omnipresent ...only present everywhere but limited to being outside everything.
|
