Dr. Craig is a liar.

[Huggy Bear]

I also stated that time doesn't exist for photons, which is what light is made of.

Can you explain that?

http://www.universetoday.com/111603/does...ence-time/

As you might know, I co-host Astronomy Cast, and get to pick the brain of the brilliant astrophysicist Dr. Pamela Gay every week about whatever crazy thing I think of in the shower. We were talking about photons one week and she dropped a bombshell on my brain. Photons do not experience time. [SNARK: Are you worried they might get bored?]

Just think about that idea. From the perspective of a photon, there is no such thing as time. It’s emitted, and might exist for hundreds of trillions of years, but for the photon, there’s zero time elapsed between when it’s emitted and when it’s absorbed again. It doesn’t experience distance either.

The closer you get to light speed, the less time you experience and the shorter a distance you experience. You may recall that these numbers begin to approach zero. According to relativity, mass can never move through the Universe at light speed. Mass will increase to infinity, and the amount of energy required to move it any faster will also be infinite. But for light itself, which is already moving at light speed… You guessed it, the photons reach zero distance and zero time.

[LadyForCamus]

BAM! Get'em Huggy! God is light! ...

And, and...if God is oil, then he don't mix with water neither! BAM!

As if I'm just making it up.
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

---

It is not surprising how you are confusing being light and moving at the speed of light.

I also stated that time doesn't exist for photons, which is what light is made of.

No one know what a photon is made of, likewise no one knows what a spirit is made of. (God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.- John 4:24)

In my opinion (emphasis on opinion) a spirit is conscious energy.

Please stop puking bible scripture all over this thread, Hugz. And stop talking about it like its evidence. You have unanswered questions regarding scripture in other threads that I'm still waiting on.

[LastPoet]

They should try to read more books than just the one Rob, I advise those that are older than 15 y o to grab a math analisys book and grow from there.

For if we are to achieve bigger accuracy in science and knowledge, we shall have stone basis on Math.

To think I hated math 20 years ago and as the fool I was and still am to a lesser degree, I was wrong. Part of arriving at skepticism, is being played the fool after all.

[Jehanne]

Can you explain that?

http://www.universetoday.com/111603/does...ence-time/

As you might know, I co-host Astronomy Cast, and get to pick the brain of the brilliant astrophysicist Dr. Pamela Gay every week about whatever crazy thing I think of in the shower. We were talking about photons one week and she dropped a bombshell on my brain. Photons do not experience time. [SNARK: Are you worried they might get bored?]

Just think about that idea. From the perspective of a photon, there is no such thing as time. It’s emitted, and might exist for hundreds of trillions of years, but for the photon, there’s zero time elapsed between when it’s emitted and when it’s absorbed again. It doesn’t experience distance either.

The closer you get to light speed, the less time you experience and the shorter a distance you experience. You may recall that these numbers begin to approach zero. According to relativity, mass can never move through the Universe at light speed. Mass will increase to infinity, and the amount of energy required to move it any faster will also be infinite. But for light itself, which is already moving at light speed… You guessed it, the photons reach zero distance and zero time.

Photos have finite lives; every time you turn on a light bulb, they are emitted, albeit, in finite quantities.  It's just absurd to say that they have "zero distance", that is, that they are everywhere in the Universe at the same time.  That is not what special relativity states; rather, SR states, from the perspective of the photon, time does not elapse, however, from the perspective of others, time does elapse.  SR is a theory about measurements in different reference frames.

You're trying to "read" SR back into Biblical texts, and you are ignoring entirely Biblical exegesis in the process.  What did the author of 1 John mean by "light"?  He meant what his culture taught him, that is, that the Earth is center of the Universe and above the Earth there was a dome of water suspended in the Heavens; above that still, there was God, a cosmic source of light.  As always, Wikipedia is a wonderful source of knowledge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology

[LastPoet]

I can't catch up with this thread. Lol. Nevermind what I said.

Huggy does sound like a guy to play Mafia. I suck at it lol.

[robvalue]

God is photons now? Interesting.

Oh wait, no. God just borrows some of the qualities of photons using an equivocation fallacy between ancient drivel and scientific knowledge. More dishonesty, what a surprise.

[RoadRunner79]

RE:

---

Actually, my understanding is; that is part of the argument for a personal cause or one capable of intention. And if time is relational to the physical world, and not separate, then also for a non-physical cause.

The questions, and I don't think we have any point of reference to answer them, is can a non-physical entity act outside of time.  However, if the evidence points to a beginning of time, then I think that the answer has to be yes.   Otherwise we wouldn't be asking the question "why is there something; rather than nothing".

---

How did you come to that conclusion?

That -is- a wonderful question....isn't it.......

can a non-physical entity act outside of time.  However, if the evidence points to a beginning of time, then I think that the answer has to be yes.   Otherwise we wouldn't be asking the question "why is there something; rather than nothing".

...now I'd go even farther, and ask how you came to string those sentences together in the first place?  What relationship do you think they have to each other...what is the means of inference you would use to go from any one of them, to any other?

You are making the argument, that there can be no change, outside of time. If this is true, and their was a beginning of time, then we would be in the same state as that point. Time could have never began, because your argument doesn't allow for any change.

[The Reality Salesman01]

What?!! No. I wish we were sitting down with a pen and paper...I could draw you a picture.

[Time Traveler]

You are correct, there is nothing incoherent about a "timeline," UNLESS you are idiotic enough to insist that one of those states on the timeline is... timeless!

EDIT: And it is equally ridiculous to assert that one of those elements on the timeline is actually prior to the beginning of the timeline itself.

It seems someone never received the memo that time is relative...

Not only did I get the memo, I am a firm advocate for the Theory of Relativity (both special and general). But Relativity doesn't help a theist who asserts 1) Time began when the universe was created, and 2) There was a timeless time on the universe's timeline before time began in which God existed. Additionally, the implications of Relativity support the B-theory of time, which I've addressed here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-42797.html. William Lane Craig and other proponents of a "timeless" deity derived from the KCA are not in favor of a Relativity based theory of time in which past, present, and future all co-exist equally.

As for photons, they exist within the universe. A photon is emitted when an electron at a high energy level converts to a lower energy level, or, in the early universe, when leptons and antileptons annihilated each other. The first photons appeared about 10 seconds after the Big Bang in what is known as the Photon Epoch, after quarks, hadrons, and leptons appeared. So if God is indeed "light," it would appear the universe preceded God and he was rather late to the party.

Also, if you could please explain the physics behind how a massless particle such as a photon - which predates the universe - can not only exist outside the universe, but create all the space, time, matter and energy within the universe, that would be helpful. You might even win a Nobel prize! And can you please define the photon's rest frame via a Lorentz transformation because, from what I've come to understand, it just isn't properly defined mathematically to describe massless particles, and thus leads to nonsensical, seemingly paradoxical results. In this case, you will have to find another method to mathematically prove your assertions regarding time and space from a photon's rest frame.

Finally, if "God is light," then we have no need for "God" because we already have a perfectly good definition of light, which we not surprisingly call... "light."

[LadyForCamus]

It seems someone never received the memo that time is relative...

Not only did I get the memo, I am a firm advocate for the Theory of Relativity (both special and general). But the Relativity doesn't help a theist who asserts 1) Time began when the universe was created, and 2) There was a timeless time on the universe's timeline before time began in which God existed. Additionally, the implications of Relativity support the B-theory of time, which I've addressed here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-42797.html. William Lane Craig and other proponents of a "timeless" deity derived from the KCA are not in favor of a Relativity based theory of time in which past, present, and future all co-exist equally.

As for photons, they exist within the universe. A photon is emitted when an electron at a high energy level converts to a lower energy level, or, in the early universe, when leptons and antileptons annihilated each other. The first photons appeared about 10 seconds after the Big Bang in what is known as the Photon Epoch, after quarks, hadrons, and leptons appeared. So if God is indeed "light," it would appear the universe preceded God and he was rather late to the party.

Also, if you could please explain the physics behind how a massless particle such as a photon - which predates the universe - can not only exist outside the universe, but create all the space, time, matter and energy within the universe, that would be helpful. You might even win a Nobel prize! And can you please define the photon's rest frame via a Lorentz transformation because, from what I've come to understand, it just isn't properly defined mathematically to describe massless particles, and thus leads to nonsensical, seemingly paradoxical results. In this case, you will have to find another method to mathematically prove your assertions regarding time and space from a photon's rest frame.

Finally, if "God is light," then we have no need for "God" because we already have a perfectly good definition of light, which we not surprisingly call... "light."

Aaaand, welcome to a debate with Huggy, where science is relative dependent upon what he likes and what he doesn't. We're all sorry in advance.