Trump now tied with Clition nationally according to Real Clear Poltics average

[Thumpalumpacus]

And besides that's not a fair comparison, a fair comparison is to compare America with other Western nation-states, and compare China to other Eastern nation-states.

Then why on Earth are you comparing America to China, Einstein?

Some people ...

[account_inactive]

Yeah and they carry out illegal assignations with drones, completely bypassing due process (that pesky court system, where there's a presumption of innocence, the right to due process is also a basic human right under UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights).

In war you don't go to court to get approval before a Soldier shoots an enemy Soldier in the trees.  We are at war.  The people getting whacked by drone missiles are our enemies.  We will kill them whenever or wherever we see them by any means at our disposal.  When they stop fighting the drone strikes will end.  Until then they can expect a Hellfire missile.

That's funny. Because last I checked most of the victims of drone strikes were civilians. And just because it's a war doesn't mean laws just disappear.

[Tiberius]

And besides that's not a fair comparison, a fair comparison is to compare America with other Western nation-states, and compare China to other Eastern nation-states. When you do that guess where each one comes out?

You're such a hypocrite. You were the one who originally compared the USA to China, and yet when someone brings up a load of positive things the USA has which China lacks, you say it's not a "fair comparison". Well if it's not a fair comparison, don't make the comparison to begin with.

[Minimalist]

That's funny. Because last I checked most of the victims of drone strikes were civilians. And just because it's a war doesn't mean laws just disappear.

Um....actually:

” inter arma silent leges”

 -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

"In times of war, laws fall silent."

[Pat Mustard]

Actually, I find that point interesting ... it's something I've been thinking about lately. I think India should be the focus of America's policy in Asia, precisely be they are a democracy with so much potential and a natural counterbalance to China. I don't think India will get near to equaling China in the next couple of generations, but partnered with America can be part of a bloc powerful enough to deter open war from the Chinese.

The way Modi is going, the US better be quick or they'll be looking to cosy up to another dictatorship, this time a Hindu supremacist fascist one.

[Pat Mustard]

Trumpalumpacus

Don't insult the poor man, Thump has brains, integrity and morality.

[Brian37]

China has done more wrong.  Just look at what they fucking did to their own people in Tiananmen Square.  Their record on human rights is downright atrocious.   And Russia isn't any goddamn better.

America's record on human rights is 100 times worse than China's and there are pictures to prove it.  We just have better propaganda than they do.

Fine, then move there if you think it is so much better. I have the same fucking problem with morons who think Che was a hero. He was an opportunist who played off of people's fears, just like Trump. I tell them the same thing, if it is so great then move to Cuba. Move to China if you think it is such a utopia.

We are trying to look like China's  sweat shop wages and that charge to create more worker instability started with Reagan's deregulation and union busting. But only an idiot thinks we have more human rights abuses.

[CapnAwesome]

China invaded Vietnam because Vietnam invaded their friend Cambodia first. China tried to mediate peace talks - but they failed. So, in the end, they invaded Vietnam (which had already invaded Cambodia which they saw as being too pro-China; this being the time of the beginning of the market reforms in China). Pol Pot was an opportunist and noob, so he gets no sympathy from me. But if your friend was being bullied, wouldn't you want to protect them? Are you seriously suggesting you wouldn't protect a friend who was being beaten up?

Neither the United States or China has ever really adhered to the Geneva Convention. And if we're to bring up centuries worth of misdeeds then we can talk about the American Indians, the Philippines and Banana Wars, etc. What I'm saying is the United States has killed more people than China - especially if we limit ourselves to the post Cold War period.

There is a long list of countries that have done nothing to deserve being interfered with by the United States - far longer than any list of Chinese interference. Call me a Chinese apologist if you want - I will proudly endorse that title - but the United States is a country of never ending war. Obama has been ordering so many bombs to be dropped the military has been running out of bombs in recent months. You have to admit the Oval Office think lives of the people of the third world are worth less than those of Americans.

Are we counting the Great Leap Forward here?  I mean let's not forget Mao Zedong Mr. Chinese Apologist.

To possibly claim the US killed more people then China is the whole of history, you'd have to do some real magic with numbers. For example bringing up the Native Americans who were largely killed by small pox before the US was even a country. I see that commonly attributed to America. Also people will attribute all the deaths in Iraq or Vietnam to America, even when most of both examples were the Iraqis and Vietnamese killing each other. Meanwhile China has existed for thousands of years in one form or another. During those times they've committed and been the victim of numerous genocides that vastly outnumber anything America has done. Like Divity said, you must be totally ignoring the great leap forward. Not only that but also the early 20th century genocide of Mongol people, the massive genocides in the 12th century, the estimated 2 million slave laborers who died in contruction projects in the early 1st century. It takes real mental gymnastics to claim America has killed more.

[KUSA]

Trumpalumpacus

Don't insult the poor man, Thump has brains, integrity and morality.

It popped in my head and I couldn't resist.

[ReptilianPeon]

---

To possibly claim the US killed more people then China is the whole of history, you'd have to do some real magic with numbers. For example bringing up the Native Americans who were largely killed by small pox before the US was even a country. I see that commonly attributed to America. Also people will attribute all the deaths in Iraq or Vietnam to America, even when most of both examples were the Iraqis and Vietnamese killing each other. Meanwhile China has existed for thousands of years in one form or another. During those times they've committed and been the victim of numerous genocides that vastly outnumber anything America has done. Like Divity said, you must be totally ignoring the great leap forward. Not only that but also the early 20th century genocide of Mongol people, the massive genocides in the 12th century, the estimated 2 million slave laborers who died in contruction projects in the early 1st century. It takes real mental gymnastics to claim America has killed more.

---

Yes, it was silly of me to even suggest comparing deaths. Chinas population is four times the size of the United States after all. I feel I should give some thoughts on the Great Leap Forward though.


I've always thought that the number of deaths in the 'Great Leap Forward' was, at least somewhat, exaggerated. The estimates vary widely and it's probably impossible to get a truly accurate figure, as with the Atlantic and Arab slave trades, etc. We must also remember, that the people that took control after Mao were the very people who enacted the market reforms, so it would be in their interests to discredit Mao, thus exaggerating the amount of deaths.

It also just so happens that during the Great Leap Forward happened during a time of drought (and this is far from the first the first such famine in China) . How many deaths attributed to the Great Leap Forward were actually as a result of the drought instead? Almost immediately after the Great Leap Forward, China's life expectancy shot up dramatically (the graph at the link uses United Nations data). I don't want to claim the Great Leap Forward was a good idea, but the numbers suggest the Great Leap Forward had some benefits. In ten years the life expectancy of the average Chinese citizen seems to have gone from its low of about 43, during the drought, to over 65 years.

I can't say that I agree with Mao, but I have trouble accepting he only did terrible things. One good thing I can think of, off of the top of my head, was that he got rid of the warlords for example. I would like to believe that saved a few lives in long term.