The Prodigal Son

[Brian37]

As for evangelization, I very much believe in St Francis' approach: "preach the gospel always, when necessary use words."

We are called to be a good example of Christian love, and in doing so, we draw others to Christ, or in other words, the Christian way of living - which is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc etc. I must admit I fail miserably many times, especially recently with how grumpy and depressed I've been.  

To me, this forum is not any more or any less a place to "evangelize" as any other. It is not the reason I am here.

You've been here for what how many years? 

While we certainly do not mind long term theists, unlike theists, I will not lie about my intent here. I am trying to save you from a needless superstition and free you from that old book of myth.  I don't think you need that old tribal book, I simply think you like the idea of it being true. 

I go after every religion including those of India and Asia. I simply see humanity stuck in superfluous clubs that have no reflection of modern knowledge and I see the potential in human progress every time science and skepticism takes what was once believed to be super natural only to end up being explained naturally.

If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves. Once you accept our species as being older than any written religion or boarders, and once you accept the age of the planet as being far older at 4 billion years, and once you accept the age of the universe as being 13.8 billion years old, the unscientific claims of antiquity seem childish and narcissistic. It was understandable back then when humans invented those things but we have progressed since then.

[robvalue]

Evangelising has a track record of zero percent success anyway, at least since I've been here. If anything, it has cemented people's scepticism when coming out of religion when picked at by vultures.

I don't consider this thread evangelising. I don't really know what the point of it is, but I'm happy to answer honest and unloaded questions. I think Ignorant is wise enough not to expect people to convert on the basis of things like this. I'm not constantly waiting for the "gotcha" card with him, like I am with most theists I've tried to debate here.

I also can't accurately predict what he's going to say, which is a nice change too.

[Angrboda]

Was this story told before or after Jesus cursed the fig tree?  I'd like to know his state of mind.

In a more serious vein, stories are assumed to have messages from their author in contexts like the parables.  That's a standard inference.  I suppose the message Jesus was trying to convey is that God will always take you back.  With a side note that those already blessed receive the full share as well.  It seems wholly liturgical.  Another story that doesn't make a lot of literal sense and is 'intended' to be taken symbolically.

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matthew 6:25-34

[madog]

Some people are so allergic to evagelization, I really don't mind it.  

Evangelism has led to the death penalty for just being gay even in the present day ... The fact that in many modern nations enforced evangelism is slowly declining in the schools, there are those fighting the receding power of the church and state tooth and nail.

As evangelism is a requirement of most religions, being a non believer and an ex evangelist I do have suspicion of evangelists.

When I was young the church I attended enthusiastically promoted us young Christians to be like the different youth cultures so we could get accepted and use the trust gained to evangelize.

I can not say  all the religious are the same, but a bible bashing Christian won't make any inroads on an atheist forum, but a more gentle approach will at least gain trust ....

I doubt any atheists will be swayed by mild evangelists but many who read the forums are looking for answers.

Dog.

[robvalue]

Was this story told before or after Jesus cursed the fig tree?  I'd like to know his state of mind.

In a more serious vein, stories are assumed to have messages from their author in contexts like the parables.  That's a standard inference.  I suppose the message Jesus was trying to convey is that God will always take you back.  With a side note that those already blessed receive the full share as well.  It seems wholly liturgical.  Another story that doesn't make a lot of literal sense and is 'intended' to be taken symbolically.

The trouble with the "always welcome" approach is that I have no incentive to become a Christian now and go through decades of rituals, when I can sign up on my deathbed for the same benefits.

A bit like this:

https://youtu.be/4mpxMZWuulk

[Alex K]

Was this story told before or after Jesus cursed the fig tree?  I'd like to know his state of mind.

In a more serious vein, stories are assumed to have messages from their author in contexts like the parables.  That's a standard inference.  I suppose the message Jesus was trying to convey is that God will always take you back.  With a side note that those already blessed receive the full share as well.  It seems wholly liturgical.  Another story that doesn't make a lot of literal sense and is 'intended' to be taken symbolically.

The trouble with the "always welcome" approach is that I have no incentive to become a Christian now and go through decades of rituals, when I can sign up on my deathbed for the same benefits.

You don't even have to sign up yourself. They'll do it in your name now.

[Brian37]

Evangelising has a track record of zero percent success anyway, at least since I've been here. If anything, it has cemented people's scepticism when coming out of religion when picked at by vultures.

I don't consider this thread evangelising. I don't really know what the point of it is, but I'm happy to answer honest and unloaded questions. I think Ignorant is wise enough not to expect people to convert on the basis of things like this. I'm not constantly waiting for the "gotcha" card with him, like I am with most theists I've tried to debate here.

I also can't accurately predict what he's going to say, which is a nice change too.

No it does have an affect, it is just that most of the time the people you plant the seed of doubt in don't change suddenly, many times it takes years. The guy that got me to start thinking will never know where I ended up. He didn't make me a sudden atheist. All he did was ask me "What if Jesus was just a man". Took me almost a decade from that point to finally call myself an atheist.

Lets not forget many of us here were once believers. It took someone to question us. So it isn't that debate does not work, it is simply most of the time you wont see whom you have affected because by the time they finally figure it out they may have long since moved on.

I don't call it "evangelizing", yea I am trying to convince. "evangelizing" makes it sound like a sales pitch. If you know you are right, why wouldn't you want to help other people get to those facts too?

But no, I don't think we need to "evangelize" like JWs nor should we.

[Pat Mustard]

Next time the title of the story alone should suffice.
The majority of us here probably know the bible better than you do. :-)

I must admit that I wasn't exactly sure whether they had fattened calf BBQ.

I'm fairly certain they cooked it in a [url=http:// https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulacht_fiadh] fullacht fiadh[/url]

[Pat Mustard]

First off, Thank you to everyone who has responded so far!

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Several thoughts

- The father's reaction is understandable and justified. His one son was obviously not fit to lead the business, and while he squandered a lot of money, it was, effectively, invested in his becoming a better, responsible person through life experience, which can arguably be more important than the money lost and pay off manifold in the future

- What a sucky job where you have to tend to the swine, but don't even get food in return? That's just ridiculous. I'm sure he could have gotten a better one *somewhere*. [1]

- It is really difficult to raise several children with very different characters and keep everything fair and balanced, and envy at bay. Ideally, the brother who stayed home loves his brother so much that he, too, will be in a mood to celebrate once done with the butt-hurt. Also, it's not like he doesn't get a nice piece of the fattened calf once he joins the partey. [2]

I give the story a 7/10. Today it seems a bit trite, but I guess back in the day it was a innovative idea not to kill everyone over the dispute. [3]

Something tells me that you might be a parent! =)

1) Agreed. This is certainly a turning point. The job he found sucks pretty bad, and the way that "master" treats his employees doesn't even match the dignity of a hired worker, much less a human being. This reminds the son of how well his father treated his employees: "If I can't be his son anymore, maybe I could at least work for my dad as anyone else does." The better-job-*somewhere*, the son concludes, is his dad's place.

2) Exactly. 

3) HA!

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I think it highlights the fact that the father took his loyal son for granted ....

Discussing it first with the son that had stayed behind would of been the nice thing to do. Had he done so that son would have felt special and would have probably suggested the fattened cow himself, however the father took for granted what he had.

Dog.

You might be right there. What do you think about the father telling the loyal son, "My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours."? Too little too late or an affirmation that the father shares more than just a fattened calf with him?

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Next time the title of the story alone should suffice.
The majority of us here probably know the bible better than you do. :-)

Now here is a strange response to the story! =) Any thoughts about the story you already knew?

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I guess the lesson is about forgiveness and acceptance. Just because the younger brother spent his money unwisely when he tried to make a life of his own, doesn't mean you should disown him if he comes back.

...It's something life has to teach you. But when you stumble and fall, it's nice to have family to life you back up. And hopefully the kid will be able to try again, and do better next time.

Thanks, Chad!

I note you left out my reading. Is that because it struck too close to the bone?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The prodigal son story is antithetical to the Esau/Jacob story. In the Esau/Jacob story Esau sold his birthright for a pittance and his shitty father Isaac went along with Jacob's thievery even after he learned what Jacob had done. Esau is the only person by name that God hates in the Bible.

The father in the prodigal son story forgives his son (Esau) although like Esau he had essentially sold his birthright for a pittance. When the wayward son returned home he welcomed him with open arms and gave him unconditional love, unlike the shitty Isaac had treated Esau. The jealous son in the prodigal son story is still the thieving Jacob character.

The story also illustrates the verse in Matthew 10:36 in which Jesus said that "a man's enemies will be those of his own household". It also supports all of the other parables about love and forgiveness that people should show one another.

Jesus retains the right to be mean and unforgiving to people who piss him off. He might give you a small break once in a while but if you cross the line he will toss your ass into the lake of fire (John 15:6).