No such thing as a "true" Christian

[theVOID]

@ VOID: There is no confusion over the accepted definition of mainstream Christian or members of the Universal Church, as has been widely posted on this forum. That is a belief in line with the Nicene creed. This includes Catholics, Protestants and every flavour in between, but not Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, etc..

Which is what precisely?

[fr0d0]

This:

---

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

---

[theVOID]

..every person on here that claims they are christian, but try to talk their way out of the list, to me, is hiding themselves from the truth. The truth is that they know deep down that they DO NOT have the powers to cast out devils, or heal people with a touch, or drink poisonus things and live. In fact they try to water them down. They try to question out of existence the obvious and simple context right in front of them. If it were any other verse, like this one:

I don't think that's at all a common set of beliefs, most of them concede that a great deal of superstition worked it's way into the bible, I just go one step further and declare it all nonsense

..lets completely forget that John 3:16 is dead WRONG when it comes to the entire context of the bible.
..flat out says that god has many sons. So that either makes God a LIAR in the bible, or it means falable humans were speaking for this god, making shit up, etc..

I've used this line of reasoning before, not quite in the same way, but to defend the position that Jesus never claimed divinity and was much more of a loony preacher who thought the sky was going to fall down. It fits nicely with all of the Davidic descendents also being called "Son of Man" or "Son of God", which supposedly just meant "Royal" before the Christians claimed it not only exclusively for Jesus, but gave it some divine connotations.

Godschild would say that I was twisting scripture, that Jesus was gods only begotten son, while the others were just his sons.

Sure, but Godschild has lots of stupid beleifs

What did God do? Find a few hundred baby angels on his doorstep and adopt them as his sons? Where did they come from? I dont know...but god couldnt of created them because then they would have been "begotten sons".

Lol!

I suppose back in the day ever woman was visited by an Angel who informed them of their pregnancy too, after all, God had to do something to make up for the lack of Pregnancy Testing Kits.

Byt the way, love the genesis verse. Remember it. When Christians say it was "the sins of man" that caused the flood, be sure to tell them they are DEAD WRONG. It was the SONS of god who came down to rape human females, and the GRAND CHILDREN OF GOD who pissed god off. Gods sons were wicked, and gods grandchildren were wicked (are you suprised?)

Nope, anyone who shares an ancestral link with YHWH is likely to be a tyrannical monster, just look at his track record.

So what did god do? He declared mortal men to be evil because of this (?????? fucking idiot tyrant god) and killed EVERYONE (including unborn babies that had NOTHING to do with gods disfunctional family) except 6 or so hebrews.

So that pretty much means everyone on Earth is a Hebrew.

It would seem so, though you couldn't tell by my nose or my bank account...

How do you like that "Oh, by the way, there were giants in the Earth back then..but enough about that insignificant detail, lets get on with the angel/mortal fucking and the blood thirsty carnage afterwards!!!"

*Thumbs up if you like my rantings*

Don't forget the bears he sent to rip small children limb from limb!

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried. And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

That's rather confusing, can you sum it up in a point by point? So far I have.

1. Trinity
2. Death and Resurrection
3. Jesus will return to judge us (Any day now...)
4. Baptism (That of Jesus or the Christian?)
5. Life after death

Anything I missed?

[fr0d0]

Uh oh! Are you going to grab your axe again!?

---

That's rather confusing, can you sum it up in a point by point?

It's a list!

Ok here's my attempt:

• God, as originally described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), the creator of the universe.
  
• Jesus Christ God's only begotten son, who was born of a virgin, executed, descended into Hell, rose again and ascended into heaven.
  
• Christ as having existed since before the creation of the world, and who will return to earth at some time in the future, to judge everyone, including the dead.
  
• Christ is "one substance" with God.
  
• Baptism is needed for the remission of sins; this implies that only baptized persons will be saved; the rest will spend eternity in Hell after death.
  
• The Holy Spirit as the giver of life who has spoken through the Prophets and is to be worshiped and glorified. The method by which God communicates with mankind.
  
• The communion of saints (Christians), forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the body after death, and eternal life after death.
  

[theVOID]

It's a list!

Ok here's my attempt:

• God, as originally described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), the creator of the universe.
  
• Jesus Christ God's only begotten son, who was born of a virgin, executed, descended into Hell, rose again and ascended into heaven.
  
• Christ as having existed since before the creation of the world, and who will return to earth at some time in the future, to judge everyone, including the dead.
  
• Christ is "one substance" with God.
  
• Baptism is needed for the remission of sins; this implies that only baptized persons will be saved; the rest will spend eternity in Hell after death.
  
• The Holy Spirit as the giver of life who has spoken through the Prophets and is to be worshiped and glorified. The method by which God communicates with mankind.
  
• The communion of saints (Christians), forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the body after death, and eternal life after death.
  

Thanks

So, Christ is going to return to earth to judge everyone, including the dead? Does that mean that the dead are not judged upon death? As in, from our frame of reference, the dead will not be in heaven/hell until Jesus returns?

And you believe people who are not Baptised will not be saved? Even if they become believers in the other tenants at a later date? For what reason? And do you consider that "fair", subjectively?

And you believe our physical bodies will be resurrected? Our physical bodies will reside in Heaven? Does that mean heaven is a realm in 3 Dimensions?

[fr0d0]

So, Christ is going to return to earth to judge everyone, including the dead? Does that mean that the dead are not judged upon death? As in, from our frame of reference, the dead will not be in heaven/hell until Jesus returns?

Probably apt for the who gets judged debate: http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00290.html

And you believe people who are not Baptised will not be saved? Even if they become believers in the other tenants at a later date? For what reason? And do you consider that "fair", subjectively?

As a member of the unwashed, I believe that to be symbolic/ a natural & integral expression of conversion. ie conversion doesn't happen without it.

And you believe our physical bodies will be resurrected? Our physical bodies will reside in Heaven? Does that mean heaven is a realm in 3 Dimensions?

No I don't believe that refers to our physical bodies.

[theVOID]

Probably apt for the who gets judged debate: http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00290.html

That doesn't really answer my question, or at least I missed it amongst all that text.

In your view, are people judged upon death or only upon the return of Jesus to earth?

And if it is post-return, what is the state of their consciousness in the interim?

As a member of the unwashed, I believe that to be symbolic/ a natural & integral expression of conversion. ie conversion doesn't happen without it.

Huh? Baptism is already symbolic. Do you mean the water is "metaphoric"? As in; "People do not need to be physically submerged in water, the water is a metaphor for the holy spirit washing away our sins" or something to that effect?

Also, I noticed this on your link "Christians will be judged according to their works and so will non-Christians" - What bearing does that have on your insistence that one need be "baptized" to be saved?

[Zen Badger]

It means that Hitler(a catholic) got into heaven.

Hitler died believing what he did was right. Do you think he asked for forgiveness for the things he believed he did right? No, he didn't.

You know this for a fact do you?

so this person lives a hypothetically perfect life and yet doesn't ask for redemption.

If this person is perfect then he or she doesn't have anything to ask for redemption for at all, he or she is... basically Jesus. lol

That's nice, but they haven't asked for gods forgiveness so they won't get into heaven by your rules, will they.

Yet Adolf, after all the actrocities he has committed, does ask for it.....

What then?

If he asked for it, then he got it.

Thereby proving what I've said, you can be the biggest murdering scumbag on the planet, cause grief and suffering to millions yet still get into heaven 'cos you've accepted jesus and said you're sorry, really really sorry.
And since according to the bible god is really, really big on genocide I don't see that as being much of a barrier to entry.

[Watson]

Of course I don't know it for a fact. That's why I said if he asked for forgiveness.

And on your hypothetical person, I reiterate the point you missed, which is that if he or she doesn't have anything to ask forgivenss for then he or she is a perfect human being in every way and thus has...nothing to be forgiven for. Derp. Therefore, he or she will get into Heaven based on the perfect, sin-free nature of his or her life.

[Zen Badger]

Because the only mainstream Christian interpretation of God is that he is just. THEREFORE your interpretation, which you are welcome to hold, is a straw man if used in opposition to the Christian view of God > from the Christian POV.

So you you think that god sending bears to murder children that had mocked the baldness of one of his prophets is just?

Ok.......

---

Of course I don't know it for a fact. That's why I said if he asked for forgiveness.

And on your hypothetical person, I reiterate the point you missed, which is that if he or she doesn't have anything to ask forgivenss for then he or she is a perfect human being in every way and thus has...nothing to be forgiven for. Derp. Therefore, he or she will get into Heaven based on the perfect, sin-free nature of his or her life.

Well Watson according to this link that Frodo posted http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00290.html

you are wrong, specifically this bit....

Christians are resurrected first immediately after the tribulation and non-Christians are resurrected later after the 1,000 year kingdom, or millennium. Non-Christians will be judged by their works, but their judgment has already been decided because they did not believe in Jesus. They are going to hell. Non-Christians are going to hell because none of their works are acceptable to God.

Next.....