AW yes.... Gods love

[tackattack]

I think God puts his law on everyone's heart, believer and unbeliever. I think lots of people who aren't Christian feel the burden of helping society and that's a good thing. I wouldn't call someone suffering for their decisions, suffering at all, only consequences. I'm also grateful for the opportunity to help and that he doesn't fix it all, he fixes enough for me though

[bbrettle]

@bb- So your understanding of God is the great puppeteer, where we have no free will then?

ive always been pre-destination when i was a christian so yeah... but thats another debate for another topic ^^

So if this is God's heart and His people's mission, why is there still poverty and oppression? One large part of that answer has to be that those of us who are fortunate have not lived according to the purpose that He has for us, and that our comfortable lifestyles directly or indirectly cause suffering. In which case, should your questions be addressed to God, or to ourselves?

So the most powerful being in the universe tells a VERY small percent of the population to carry the burden of making sure the MASSIVE majority of the rest of the population is well-cared for.
Meanwhile, your god sits on his ass and doesn't do a damn thing with his unlimited power accept ALLOW the suffering.


Your god's a dick, pal!

couldnt have said it better myself

@ tim, i have a Good grasp on the Bible as far as verses go ( 13- + yrs in a christian private school ) my main question is there are some people that we will NEVER reach even if we devoted our lives to saving others and keeping them fed ... but what is the purpose of someones ENTIRE being a living HELL Why would God choose to create him/her in the first place theres NO purpose only to torcher the poor soul

[Faith No More]

I've hit rock bottom a few times in my life and managed to pull myself out from it without religion. Many people have tried to push it down my face and said I needed to get right with god and I told them that wasn't my problem. After many years of struggling I am better than ever, all without 'giving myself to god.' My point is that the fact that so many people need to hit rock bottom to find religon does not really say anything about religion itself but about the people who needed it to get better. I'm not saying it's a bad thing people use religion to stabilize their lives, it's just that if god really wanted people to turn themselves over to him, why would he allow someone who clearly denies his existence to crawl out from the depths of despair to a good life? Isn't that just reinforcing my notion that god is not neccessary?

[Timothy]

So the most powerful being in the universe tells a VERY small percent of the population to carry the burden of making sure the MASSIVE majority of the rest of the population is well-cared for.

---

Meanwhile, your god sits on his ass and doesn't do a damn thing with his unlimited power accept ALLOW the suffering.
Your god's a dick, pal!

---

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." Titus 2:11-14

There was no implication in my reference to "God's people" that some are excluded from being His people or from the responsibility of caring for the poor and oppressed.

[tackattack]

I've hit rock bottom a few times in my life and managed to pull myself out from it without religion. Many people have tried to push it down my face and said I needed to get right with god and I told them that wasn't my problem. After many years of struggling I am better than ever, all without 'giving myself to god.' My point is that the fact that so many people need to hit rock bottom to find religon does not really say anything about religion itself but about the people who needed it to get better. I'm not saying it's a bad thing people use religion to stabilize their lives, it's just that if god really wanted people to turn themselves over to him, why would he allow someone who clearly denies his existence to crawl out from the depths of despair to a good life? Isn't that just reinforcing my notion that god is not neccessary?

Why would he allow someone who denies his existence to crawl out of the depths? Because he doesn't want people to suffer, because he's a loving God perhaps? It reinforces that notion that God is not necessary to be good, which I agree with as a statement. If your only goal is to live this life then truly God is not necessary. I find my belief in God useful and productive to adding to this life, but there are plenty of people that use religion to abuse others to counter that. I try and live this life, because that's all I get, for me God is not necessary, but I can't deny my perception of his influence. I deem it rational, experiential and logical, for me it's as real as the color blue is to you. I find it unnecessary, but a boon to believe in God, regardless of His provability. I don't know what happens after this life, but I believe there is something after it. I don't know that I require salvation, but I desire it, and that necessitates a forgiver, ie. God

[Faith No More]

Why would he allow someone who denies his existence to crawl out of the depths? Because he doesn't want people to suffer, because he's a loving God perhaps? It reinforces that notion that God is not necessary to be good, which I agree with as a statement. If your only goal is to live this life then truly God is not necessary. I find my belief in God useful and productive to adding to this life, but there are plenty of people that use religion to abuse others to counter that. I try and live this life, because that's all I get, for me God is not necessary, but I can't deny my perception of his influence. I deem it rational, experiential and logical, for me it's as real as the color blue is to you. I find it unnecessary, but a boon to believe in God, regardless of His provability. I don't know what happens after this life, but I believe there is something after it. I don't know that I require salvation, but I desire it, and that necessitates a forgiver, ie. God

Now that you have described what you actually believe it makes more sense now. I think the concept that a loving god would send someone like to me to hell, which what I was kind of leading towards. Your interpretation of not being sure whether you require salvation is new to me though as I was always taught that salvation was neccessary for humanity.

Mostly though what you are saying sounds a bit like the United Methodist church my parents took me to as a kid. They didn't preach fire and brimstone, only tried the spread the message of love thy neighbor and such. How does one come to this interpration? After all, Jesus specifically mentions hell many times

[Timothy]

@ tim, i have a Good grasp on the Bible as far as verses go ( 13- + yrs in a christian private school ) my main question is there are some people that we will NEVER reach even if we devoted our lives to saving others and keeping them fed ... but what is the purpose of someones ENTIRE being a living HELL Why would God choose to create him/her in the first place theres NO purpose only to torcher the poor soul

I don't see any reason for your "NEVER" - imagine every single person living in a way that puts the needs of everyone else above themselves. Materially, there is enough for everyone; it is only human selfishness that prevents that from being a reality. I think the real questions here are "Why are we so self-centred?" and "What would it take for us to drop our egoism and pick up altruism?"

[bbrettle]

so its my fault that people are starving due to my selfishness?

Keep in mind God knows EVERYTHING =)

[Timothy]

so its my fault that people are starving due to my selfishness?

Keep in mind God knows EVERYTHING =)

Partly, yes. And me. And everyone. We are all individually and collectively responsible for each other and our world, and that is a responsibility that God has given us. That means that when we mess it up it's our fault not God's, and it's our duty to clean things up. That doesn't mean God does nothing - quite the opposite - He goes to the root of the problem, which is the problem of the human will bent in on itself. Only His self-revelation can unbend us back towards Him, just as only the Sun's light can cause a drooping flower to turn and face the Sun. That's why He reveals Himself in Creation, in Scripture, and ultimately in Jesus. And He does not do this because He has a duty towards us (that is the wrong way round), but because of His grace.

[bbrettle]

If God KNOWS everything and CHOOSES to create me fully KNOWING im not going to feed the hungry poor people its MY fault? I would say thats not my doing... its His ... but agree to dissagree =)