Apparitions from heaven???

[emjay]

IMO a conspiracy theory, no matter how big or involved it is, is always more plausible than the alternative of magic. Because it is earthly and known to be possible by known physical laws etc, however seemingly unlikely. So theists scoff at conspiracy theories, but they're still infinitely more probable, and thus rational, than magic as the answer.

I just don't see how a conspiracy like that could have been pulled off, as I explained to Poca. 

If I wasn't religious at all... actually, let's say I'm apathetic. 

If I was apathetic to religion in general, I would still at the very least think a conspiracy theory that panned out like that would be equal to or more unlikely than an actual supernatural occurrence having happened.

I'm not saying that I necessarily think this particular thing is a conspiracy, though I am leaning that way now, but what I am saying is that this is how I treat any claim like this; that an earthly explanation always comes first over a magical one. So even if an event can only be explained by a hundred interconnected earthly events, that is always more probable than it being by one supernatural event, because the earthly events are already known to exist (such as, potentially in this case, people lying, deceiving, manipulating etc... especially in the cause of religion).

[Catholic_Lady]

But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

It happened at the same time because didn't one of the children yell out to look at the sun?  They likely all stood there staring at the sun wondering what they were supposed to see when it started affecting their eyes.  And as soon as a few people started saying that the sun was dancing in the sky, other people hoping for a miracle likely would have convinced themselves that they were seeing the same thing.  Because that's how mass hysteria works.

The reason nobody who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect is likely due to the fact that most people there were very religious and superstitious.  If you're very religious and superstitious and in a crowd where thousands of people start claiming they are witnessing a miracle, you're likely not going to pipe up and tell them they're just hallucinating.  It's hard enough to convince gullible Christians that Jesus really didn't appear on a slice of toast and what they're seeing is pareidolia.

I dunno... there were 100,000 people there. I doubt they all heard a little girl say "look at the sun". Also, what about the dry clothes and dried puddles?

[Simon Moon]

I dunno... there were 100,000 people there. I doubt they all heard a little girl say "look at the sun". Also, what about the dry clothes and dried puddles?

As if it would take hearing someone say, "look a the sun", when 10's of thousands of other people are ALL looking at the sun...

[abaris]

So do I. I mean who would go? If say Drich 'prophesised' on here that something was going to happen at a certain time and place, what right-thinking athiest would actually go there just in case or just to prove him wrong? The more likely response would be 'yeah, whatever'.

Got nothing to do with who prophecised. If that even did happen and wasn't just a story they came up with later. It's got everything to do with rural Portugal. Or rural any country of the world at that time. Especially where the catholic priest was still the utmost authority to turn to in times of trouble. Still is in one horse towns where catholics make up the majority.

I doubt that there was any skeptic to be found at the educational ass end or rural Portugal in 1917.

[RozKek]

Because they were told to look at the fuckin' sun maybe?? maybe that's why it happened at the same time? just mby?? Do you think they really knew that staring into the sun could cause such ocular effects?? Oh yes, of course, they were like "EVERYONE WHO STARTS SEEING MAD SUN SHIT RAISE YOUR HANDS" and everyone literally raised their hands at the exact same time, but they definitely didn't stare into it for many minutes which is definitely not enough to cause such ocular effects.

Um, calm down son. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I'm just explaining why I think it's convincing to me, and I think it's interesting to talk about. No reason to get your panties in a bunch just because we don't agree on this being a miracle.

Really hits a nerve when someone brings up a point, ignores the answers, bring up the same points that have been answered, then when they finally read the answers that debunk their point, they don't change their mind. If you're not willing to change your mind about a miracle that clearly has natural explanations what the hell is the point in discussing/debating it? I'm sorry if it offends you, but willful ignorance really hits a nerve.

[RozKek]

I just don't see how a conspiracy like that could have been pulled off, as I explained to Poca. 

If I wasn't religious at all... actually, let's say I'm apathetic. 

If I was apathetic to religion in general, I would still at the very least think a conspiracy theory that panned out like that would be equal to or more unlikely than an actual supernatural occurrence having happened.

I'm not saying that I necessarily think this particular thing is a conspiracy, though I am leaning that way now, but what I am saying is that this is how I treat any claim like this; that an earthly explanation always comes first over a magical one. So even if an event can only be explained by a hundred interconnected earthly events, that is always more probable than it being by one supernatural event, because the earthly events are already known to exist (such as, potentially in this case, people lying, deceiving, manipulating etc... especially in the cause of religion).

A supernatural explanation should never come. Just because one doesn't know the answer doesn't mean it was sp00ky Jezuz. 'I don't know' is far better than made up bullshit unless it's a hypothesis that can or will be tested.

[emjay]

So do I. I mean who would go? If say Drich 'prophesised' on here that something was going to happen at a certain time and place, what right-thinking athiest would actually go there just in case or just to prove him wrong? The more likely response would be 'yeah, whatever'.

Got nothing to do with who prophecised. If that even did happen and wasn't just a story they came up with later. It's got everything to do with rural Portugal. Or rural any country of the world at that time. Especially where the catholic priest was still the utmost authority to turn to in times of trouble. Still is in one horse towns where catholics make up the majority.

I doubt that there was any skeptic to be found at the educational ass end or rural Portugal in 1917.

Yeah, that's what I figure... any 'skeptics' were only skeptical of the kids claims, but still believers in god... still entirely open to the possibility of a miracle happening, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered going.

[Catholic_Lady]

Um, calm down son. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I'm just explaining why I think it's convincing to me, and I think it's interesting to talk about. No reason to get your panties in a bunch just because we don't agree on this being a miracle.

Really hits a nerve when someone brings up a point, ignores the answers, bring up the same points that have been answered, then when they finally read the answers that debunk their point, they don't change their mind. If you're not willing to change your mind about a miracle that clearly has natural explanations what the hell is the point in discussing/debating it? I'm sorry if it offends you, but willful ignorance really hits a nerve.

I've already explained several times why the "natural explanation" doesn't hold any water for me. Sorry you're so upset.

[emjay]

I'm not saying that I necessarily think this particular thing is a conspiracy, though I am leaning that way now, but what I am saying is that this is how I treat any claim like this; that an earthly explanation always comes first over a magical one. So even if an event can only be explained by a hundred interconnected earthly events, that is always more probable than it being by one supernatural event, because the earthly events are already known to exist (such as, potentially in this case, people lying, deceiving, manipulating etc... especially in the cause of religion).

A supernatural explanation should never come. Just because one doesn't know the answer doesn't mean it was sp00ky Jezuz. 'I don't know' is far better than made up bullshit unless it's a hypothesis that can or will be tested.

Yeah, that too. Sorry I didn't mean to imply that if I don't know, I jump to magic as an answer, cos that's not the case at all. I'm happy not knowing the answer to things, or even knowing that I will never know the answer.

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm not saying that I necessarily think this particular thing is a conspiracy, though I am leaning that way now, but what I am saying is that this is how I treat any claim like this; that an earthly explanation always comes first over a magical one. So even if an event can only be explained by a hundred interconnected earthly events, that is always more probable than it being by one supernatural event, because the earthly events are already known to exist (such as, potentially in this case, people lying, deceiving, manipulating etc... especially in the cause of religion).

If you've ever read the Sherlock Holmes stories, Holmes stated that once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.  Unfortunately those who are religious not only fail to eliminate the impossible, they embrace it as the only possible truth and ignore the real explanation.