Apparitions from heaven???

[RozKek]

A supernatural explanation should never come. Just because one doesn't know the answer doesn't mean it was sp00ky Jezuz. 'I don't know' is far better than made up bullshit unless it's a hypothesis that can or will be tested.

Yeah, that too. Sorry I didn't mean to imply that if I don't know, I jump to magic as an answer, cos that's not the case at all. I'm happy not knowing the answer to things, or even knowing that I will never know the answer.

I know you don't, just wanted to add to what you said :p

[Catholic_Lady]

Carmelite home?

Are you aware of the countless stories by nuns jumping 30 feets high to grab a crucifix and things along these lines? All reported by so called neutral witnesses. None of them confirmed by any serious investigation on the matter.

If that was to happen in a controlled environment, I would consider incidences like that. But not coming from sources where the bias already runs in overdrive.

Well, I don't know if you're into scary movies/stories or not. I am though.

Even if this story is made up by the people who claimed to have seen stuff when they really didn't, I still find it super interesting to read about. The case in St Louis from 1949 was even more interesting and even more convincing I think. I get scared sometimes at night from reading so much about this type of stuff but it's worth it lol.

The case in Amityville was supposedly a true story as well but that's one of the many that I don't believe. There need to be enough witnesses and enough unexplainable events documented for me to believe it.

[Catholic_Lady]

I've already explained several times why the "natural explanation" doesn't hold any water for me. Sorry you're so upset.

Don't take it personally, I am from time to time grumpy, my apologies, I was immature.

Aww, it's ok! I appreciate it. 

[pocaracas]

Yeah...I don't believe the kids were lying.
I find it far more likely that they were being deceived by someone else (possibly a team of people).
Someone who knew the land and who had noted consistent atmospheric phenomena throughout the years... There's another well known phenomenon here, the Summer of St. Martin, that happens yearly around November 11th (St. Martin's day, when we traditionally eat roasted chestnuts... global warming must be messing it up, as it seems to have passed by last week), but I remember it working like clockwork,
just last year.

It wouldn't take much to make those kids believe in what they were being told... Rural Portugal was pretty much pastoral - no sophistication of any kind... Very religious to begin with, so, by default, gullible.
Curiously, on the day the sun was seen to wobble, there was no apparition... no lady, no angel... just the sun. It's as if it would be impossible to pull such a trick in front of all those people.

So you think it was some sort of mass conspiracy magic trick by a team of people who got tens of thousands of people to see a sun moving around and changing colors and drying up their wet clothes and puddles in seconds at the exact time predicted??

I dunno... that seems even more far fetched imho lol.

Well, like others said, no matter how far fetched, it's still more likely than magic.
We'll probably never know for sure what happened for real, but we can speculate!
And, if we're giving in to speculation, might as well start with earthly motivations, rather than ghostly ones.

I can't say if it was a mass conspiracy, or a small conspiracy. If it was atmospheric luck or borne out of careful observation of the site's behavior.

But all the things described to have happened can have a natural explanation.
- Tens of thousands of people?... well... the report says "many thousands" and then later just "thousands"... so, you may want to dial down on the number of people actually present. It's not like they counted heads or charged tickets, so judging by the photos, I'd guess not much more than 10 thousand. Still a considerable turnout! But most of them biased, you must agree. Most were expecting to see something. Most were primed. Add the exclamation "look at the sun" and most will see something with the sun.
- The sun moving could have happened due some mirage effect, arising from quick evaporation of recently fallen rain. That could happen in October, in Portugal, where the temperatures are still compatible with Summer time - heck, we just had 30ºC (86F) 2 weeks ago. In a place known to be a hole, temperatures can rise even higher with direct sun exposure.
- Changing colors, since we're talking about water vapor in the air... ever seen a rainbow? Although, to be fair, when you see the rainbow, you have the sun at your back, not directly ahead. But some prismatic effect cannot be ruled out altogether. However, changing colors can come about due to people staring at the sun for too long. I wonder how many got retinal damage after that... nobody knows...
- Drying up wet clothes and puddles... I don't find that in the account I linked to you earlier. I have no idea where that particular detail comes from. But, like I said before, sunlight shining on a bowl does tend to heat it up. Maybe people's perception of time got skewed?
- At the exact time predicted... or was it foreseen? Like I said... could be that someone had studied the weather patterns in the region and foretold that something peculiar would happen there at that time.
Nowadays, it's all built up, the geography is altered, so it won't happen again... clever, huh?


Add to that the socio-political forces potentially at play.
In 1908 the king is assassinated.
In 1910, the successor is forced to abdicate and flees to Brazil. The monarchy is toppled and a Republic is instituted.
This Republic goes through a few rough spots, with assassinated presidents shortly after being elected.
In 1912, the Titanic sails... and sinks. (fun bit)
In 1914 the first world war breaks out and Portugal takes part siding with the Allied forces. (you may like to read up https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_n...ra_Mundial, yes it's in Portuguese... there are few instances of a wiki page where the Portuguese version is better than the English one.. and this is one of them)
Fátima becomes known in 1917. One of the "secrets" concerns the "evil communists" and predicts that they will lose the war... yay.

[abaris]

Well, I don't know if you're into scary movies/stories or not. I am though.

You know how many supposedly real ghost stories I have read. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. But the last time I gave them some real consideration was when being a kid. Now I'm in the habit of plucking them apart. I've yet to find any story being in any way convincing. Always eyewitness accounts by people already biased to view things in a certain way, always hearsay, always grainy photographs showing no detail.

[Catholic_Lady]

Well, I don't know if you're into scary movies/stories or not. I am though.

You know how many supposedly real ghost stories I have read. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. But the last time I gave them some real consideration was when being a kid. Now I'm in the habit of plucking them apart. I've yet to find any story being in any way convincing. Always eyewitness accounts by people already biased to view things in a certain way, always hearsay, always grainy photographs showing no detail.

Ahh, well then let me recommend this book to you if you're ever in the mood for some scary reading material.

"Possessed" by Thomas B Allen. 

It's actually the true story that the movie "the exorcist" was inspired from, but it's a very very different story. The accounts in the book are taken from the diary and documents of a Jesuit priest who was involved with the exorcisms, as well as some interviews to fill in the gaps.  

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/possesse...ctInfoTabs

[Minimalist]

I'm still trying to get over the Cat Nuns.

[abaris]

It's actually the true story that the movie "the exorcist" was inspired from, but it's a very very different story. The accounts in the book are taken from the diary and documents of a Jesuit priest who was involved with the exorcisms, as well as some interviews to fill in the gaps.  

I know about this book, but I never read it. Jesuit priest being the operative word here. Give me something in a controlled and neutral environment and I will give it some consideration. But certainly not something by someone already having some confirmation bias.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm still trying to get over the Cat Nuns.

Catholic lady = Cat lady

[Minimalist]

I'm trying to compare your picture to that one and it just isn't working for me.