I am about to ask a serious but utterly reprehensible question

[ronedee]

Well..... an observation, questions and a hypothetical @ you.

Okay sure, but you didn't answer my question. How can you love something you don't think is real?

You say there isn't a god.

I said I don't believe in god. Under certain definitions of God, I will say there is no god, yes. It's an extremely vague term. The biblical god? Yes, I believe that is almost certainly fictional. It's a story like any other. Just one lots of people think is magically real somehow.

If you don't believe in God, why do you call Him a monster? Because of what others tell you about God? Or because you know that for a fact?

It was a hypothetical. If such a thing exists, and it was as you described, it would be a monster. You said his rule is that I have to love him, and if I don't, I'm going to face consequences. That to me is clearly a monstrous being. Was this not what you were saying?

Do you Love Life? Do you Love your fellow man? Do you consider yourself honest, caring loving person? Would you stop to help someone you know is in trouble, or help them in some way? These are just generalizations.

Love life? That's vague. I don't especially enjoy life since I'm extremely depressed. But I still value all life extremely highly. To all the other questions, yes. I consider myself a good and caring person. It's very important to me. Looking after other humans and animals is my number one priority in life.

What "IF" answering [yes] to all of these questions meant you were doing God's will, and in His good graces. Can you accept that as a possibility? And IF not, why?

I have no idea what this has to do with God. He wants me to be nice? Well, we have no problem there. If he wants me to be nice, I'm going to do that anyway. I'm not doing it because he's telling me to, though. If he told me not to be nice, I'd still be nice regardless.

If I'm in his good graces for being a nice person, then I'd say he is a very reasonable being, yes. If however he throws all that aside because I can't love him due to not believing he is real, then he's a monster again. Love is not demanded, it is earned. And step one would be him turning up to interact with me, and then hoping I would love him. That would be somewhat sensible.

If "loving god" is just another way of saying "being nice", then sure, I "love god", but it doesn't actually mean I literally love him. It would be like you loving Luke Skywalker or something, and me saying you're doing "his will". It doesn't make sense.

I like your replies. I don't necessarily agree with them all. But, I understand your thinking. And I respect that you have an open mind.

One point. I don't think God, at least in my estimation requires us to love Him as much as we love each other. And Jesus did say that the "second commandment was just as important as the first." If we can love his creation (man), I believe He would be somewhat happy about that! Loving each other can be the hardest thing to do in our day to day life! As we all know.

I will pray for your depression. Thanks for your replies! Ron

[Astonished]

So? Got any hard evidence to back up any claims or is it going to be all anecdotal or philosophical word scramble? I've heard it all, and no matter how you think you've got it figured, you really don't. Guaranteed.

No.... no hard evidence for you!

I'll try to sort through all those adjectives to answer some of your concerns...

I didn't address your subject matter (hell & related) because many vehicles are used to enslave the masses. 
I thought you cared about the child in your terrifying tale . But after witnessing your revealing testimony, 
I realized the kid was just a prop. It was more about you.

Also, you are confusing me with someone who cares..... about your salvation! Or anyone else's for
that matter. No sherlock, I'm here for you to talk me down from my religion. Its been 6 years around 
this boneyard, and nothin' yet. No one. And while I'm here, I may as well add some fuel, so to speak. 
Of course there are my brothers in Christ I will support and defend. So, those are my motives. Nothing else.

As for you? I would say you've created a nice little scenario for yourself in your op.... minus the "prop" of
course. You see, I don't spend a nanosecond thinking about hell. No profit in it. At least not for me.
I'll leave it to you and the fundies to whip up into frenzy of nonsensical hyperbole. Hell doesn't exist
for me. It may be there, It may not. I don't really care. I spend my time thinking more heavenly thoughts.

The question of God always comes down to "hard evidence". But actually the real issue is "acceptance" of Him.
Now that I have your attention.... wait a minute before you scramble to write more adjectives .... 
I'll "prove" my point!

IF God revealed Himself to you, would you pay Him homage? Would you bow down before your creator,
and Love Him? Smile and "accept" Him, and His Love?

uh.... Let me guess here. No.

You see, that is what it really comes down to. "I will not serve." And like most anti's you are your God.
And the only scenario that is real for you is the place you've created in your mind.... minus the "prop"
of course. Because there is "nothing" out there. No Thing. That is what you look for. And that is what you find.

Its actually kind of sad, and ironic that the men that you say fooled us with "dusty old pages", have fooled you too!
The search didn't stop for me. For you? that was enough evidence to condemn everything about the existence of God.

Scripture for me, is a treasure map. Not the treasure. A map is loaded with many things. And people can read it
many ways. The road is never easy. There are many obstacles, and pit falls. There may even be some dead ends
and exaggerations. But the treasure is real. Because the map is there. And using it has taken me further than I could 
imagine possible. So, I will follow it to the end. Mostly, because of my faith. And secondly? Its better than "No Thing".

An object of worship needs to be worthy of said worship. I can see you've obviously ignored every reason I outlined on why this is not the case with your god, but what the fuck ever, no surprises there that someone of faith is going to stick their fingers in their ears going 'la la la, I can't hear you' when confronted with the ugly truth about what they hold dearest.

And believe it or not, hell was actually never a problem for me. I saw right off the bat how unreasonable it was as a kid, and the moment I could no longer square the god circle (thanks to my buffoonish uncle) it was the simplest thing to cast off the entirety of it, whatever little fear there may have been vanishing like that. So why shouldn't it bother me that an 8 year old child can figure out how to reject what adults regularly fail to do, and look even more childish trying to defend? My indignation over this whole idea is on behalf of the numerous children, or adults who grew up with such childhood trauma, not my personal experience with hellish indoctrination. Because I have genuine empathy for others, not like your phony-baloney knock-off of it.

Once again, you're blaming the victim. Divine hiddenness is OUR fault, not that fuck-up Yahweh's for playing hard-to-get. Oh, yeah, he's SO worth it. His road map sucks, and gives no other hints as to how to find or communicate with him in any effective way, but of course, that's still on us, having been created ignorant of this seemingly vital information. I know this is disgustingly ironic, but for fuck's sake, do you not see how this is uncomfortably similar to telling a rape victim they didn't fight the rapist off hard enough (because remember, hell is in the balance here whether you believe in that or not; those are simply the stakes the book has been that unclear about)? I mean, I know there's a thing in the Muslim world where a woman who doesn't scream loud enough when being raped is punished for at least one of many possible imaginary offenses, but that's beside the point.

If god appeared before me in a way that was undeniable, you are correct, I would not give him any praise nor anything but contempt. He has a lot to answer for and while I'm a rationalist and will change my mind about certain firm beliefs I hold when sufficient evidence to support changing the view presents itself, he'd have to have a GOD DAMN GOOD explanation for his shitty behavior for me to look upon him as anything but the devil's evil twin. He doesn't just get let off the hook for every moment remaining behind a veil, for every indifferent turn of the head to ignore the suffering, and for his contemptible creative hand in designing things with such devastating flaws. No, respect has to be earned. Love cannot be demanded or held hostage. This emotionally unstable character simply cannot exist as described anyway, but even so, praising them for not doing their job properly, and being unqualified for the position in the first place, is an asinine proposition. You simply cannot be called a sane or reasonable person if you will not hold your god accountable for, at a minimum, not immediately and unmistakably correcting the behavior of anyone who believes they are following what he has willed. It's one thing if a person has free will but if they are exercising that free will in submission to their perceived deity, then that deity is by no means in violation of their free will by popping down here from whatever extradimensional McMansion he's lounging around in and saying, "Gee, uh, sorry you got the wrong idea, friend, but...well, that's kinda not what I had in mind...at all. So, just take that bomb vest off slowly, and let's go have a chat over coffee, my treat." THAT god? Fuckin' A, I could get behind that in a heartbeat.

[robvalue]

I like your replies. I don't necessarily agree with them all. But, I understand your thinking. And I respect that you have an open mind.

One point. I don't think God, at least in my estimation requires us to love Him as much as we love each other. And Jesus did say that the "second commandment was just as important as the first." If we can love his creation (man), I believe He would be somewhat happy about that! Loving each other can be the hardest thing to do in our day to day life! As we all know.

I will pray for your depression. Thanks for your replies! Ron

Thanks very much I appreciate the polite discourse, and you saying I have an open mind. Indeed, I'm open to any possibility about absolutely anything. I'm willing to change my mind on any subject. All I need is evidence and/or reasoning strong enough for me to reconsider. People so often mistake being open minded with instantly accepting whatever they happen to be telling me, without justification.

I certainly figure that any God who is in any way "good" would be pleased with how I live my life. I'd be more than happy to have a relationship with it, whatever it is, if it decided it wanted one. But that's really in his court.

I'm not letting depression ruin my life as I have too much to live for. Things are going the best they have been in some time now, I have several good things in the pipeline.

[Drich]

Drich, I am sick to fucking death of your incapability to understand that you are also using interpretation and a 'straight reading' of your equivalent of ancient toilet paper is literally impossible, the point being that you can justify whatever fucked-up things you do because the entire idea is irrational, hence why even YOU, a theist, can't convince another theist they are wrong about their interpretation or that X part of the bible is literal and Y part is allegorical. You are a textbook case of every intellectually dishonest tactic theists use in defense of their beliefs, and the psychological flaws created by having to look at the world believing two and two make five. I am truly sorry but you're going to need a better person than me to cure you. I've given you far too many chances to be intellectually honest for once in your life and it's just not happening. I think putting you on ignore is the best thing for both of us since I seem to be having the opposite effect and making you retreat further into your mania rather than making you see reason.

I'm "Astonished" at the irony here. Your charges against me seem more like personal projection that reflect your own views of theology.

Because nothing you've said or pretended to say actully practices what it is your on about, it just you are "text booking" the oppsite. You simply assume I assume or am defending 2+2=5 despite what I've actually said re have habitually reassigned me that position (2+2=5)

How do you not see that? Oh, that right in your projective rant you tell me. Intellectual dishonesty. You don't want to hear what I have to say so you assign me a title so you do not have to listen..

I get it. You butt hurt from your last church. All I am point out is "church/religion" is not God.

The gaps between what is written and church doctrine should be obvious to someone like you, if you weren't in such a need to play the role of persecutor.

[Harry Nevis]

In all genuine honesty...and I just came up with this today, and someone making a threat about hell in one of the threads convinced me it has to be asked. Please, don't hate me, this is not done out of malice or perversion, and is simply a ghastly version of a reductio ad absurdum.

To any person who will tell a child that they are a miserable sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment - regardless of how easy they claim it will be to avoid this (and remember, you still deserve it, you've just been given undeserved mercy via salvation, right? You're still scum but they let you into the country club) - what is stopping you from saying that child deserves to be, say, raped? Surely flesh-searing torment without end is a worse fate, and surely some lava-skinned demon down there is going to get their hands on you at some point, right? So why would you say one and not the other, if one is far, far worse and yet can't be experienced on earth?

I expect the answers will disregard the fact that we are disregarding salvation, and be flimsy excuses at best rather than actual answers. If this does not prove once and for all anyone who ever introduces the concept of hell to a child is no different from a predator, nothing will.

If this was a step too far, just delete it. I'm so disgusted with religious people right now, I can't even separate them from their faith.

I'm a Christian and agree that no one should abuse their child with that rubbish. Unfortunately, people pick and choose what they want to exploit, in the bible and in life. We may be part of a religion, but our relationship with God is personal. And the abuse that you talk about isn't as rampant as you think.

Also you need to separate the "chaff from the wheat"... as in any social setting. As you know, there are "good & bad" in every facet of life. People need to be responsible for their actions. I'm tired of being dragged into the mud, by "our bad" and people that exploit them for their own purpose of destroying the faithful. There are millions upon millions of religious that are good and decent people. So, its time for us (you & I) to root the "bad" out together! Not demonize the whole, because of the extremely minute evil parts.

As far as the scriptures, and premise itself? No one is automatically going to hell just because they don't believe, or are a sinner. That is rubbish. I could point to specifics in the Holy Gospel to give examples of redemption, but suffice it to say: "people choose" where they go in life; and the hereafter! Not bible distorters look for ways to subjugate the weak minded.

There are only 2 things God really requires of us: "To Love God. And to Love one another." You can't be a sinner doing those 2 things, always! Because, you won't be doing any of the other things on "the list" wrongly when you are doing the first 2. "Those are the greatest commandments. All the Law and the prophets depend on those 2 commandments." Matt 22:40,41

And that is why no one religious, or otherwise has any say in another man's salvation, or lack thereof. No one but the person, and God.

You'd think that all these people with their personal relationship with god would be of one mind on scripture and what's right and wrong in god's eyes.

It's almost like they were pulling crap out of thin air...

---

If I don't believe in god, then I don't love god. So I fail, I guess?

That's your option. Free will is just that.

So I can just decide to believe?

---

Drich, I am sick to fucking death of your incapability to understand that you are also using interpretation and a 'straight reading' of your equivalent of ancient toilet paper is literally impossible, the point being that you can justify whatever fucked-up things you do because the entire idea is irrational, hence why even YOU, a theist, can't convince another theist they are wrong about their interpretation or that X part of the bible is literal and Y part is allegorical. You are a textbook case of every intellectually dishonest tactic theists use in defense of their beliefs, and the psychological flaws created by having to look at the world believing two and two make five. I am truly sorry but you're going to need a better person than me to cure you. I've given you far too many chances to be intellectually honest for once in your life and it's just not happening. I think putting you on ignore is the best thing for both of us since I seem to be having the opposite effect and making you retreat further into your mania rather than making you see reason.

I'm "Astonished" at the irony here. Your charges against me seem more like personal projection that reflect your own views of theology.

Of course, because that's the one of the rules of Christian apologetics - throw out a bunch of unsubstantiated bullshit in order to piss off anyone thinking logically, and then blame their reaction on projection.

[Polaris]

It is not for me whether to say someone will go to Hell or not. While I can judge a Christian for not living a holy life, I am forbidden from condemning them to Hell....who am I to say that, at the end of it all, where they will end up?

[Jesster]

It is not for me whether to say someone will go to Hell or not. While I can judge a Christian for not living a holy life, I am forbidden from condemning them to Hell....who am I to say that, at the end of it all, where they will end up?

You would agree with the person who would be sending someone to hell, though, right?

[Polaris]

No person has that power, only God.

[Jesster]

No person has that power, only God.

So you don't agree with your god, then?

[Polaris]

It is not for me whether to say someone will go to Hell or not. While I can judge a Christian for not living a holy life, I am forbidden from condemning them to Hell....who am I to say that, at the end of it all, where they will end up?

You would agree with the person who would be sending someone to hell, though, right?

No person has that power, only God.

So you don't agree with your god, then?

No, I would not if it meant sending someone to Hell. I have free will to challenge God.