(February 1, 2017 at 12:33 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I refuse to debate various doctrines like eternal conscious torment, annihilation, or universalism with atheists. With all due respect Drich, Steve, and RR79, the scriptures as best as I can tell are indeterminate about the ultimate fate of the unrighteous. I've heard good arguments and proof texts supporting each position. The important thing is that His work on the Cross has delivered the faithful from whatever dire fate awaits the unrepentant. I truly feel sad for Astonished. He or she seems badly damaged by an abusive church. That appears to happen all to frequently.

Hey, don't make assumptions about me or my motivations, you miscellaneous-adjective noun that I'm going to leave vague until I know more and can determine an appropriate result. Maybe I only witnessed religion's handiwork second-hand and am just feeling righteous indignation on behalf of others who were victims that I couldn't help. Maybe seeing what it does to the la-di-da types who don't realize it's eating them alive and having any attempts to help them constantly and condescendingly rebuffed is the reason. Not everyone has to have been traumatized personally to have a beef with religion. To not have a beef with it is irrational, frankly.

And the nature of these disparate documents is to be indeterminate, whenever you weave together a primitive fiction how can anyone honestly expect an ounce of coherency?

(January 28, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Astonished Wrote: In all genuine honesty...

There was no reason to read past that redundancy.

(February 1, 2017 at 12:33 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:  I truly feel sad for Astonished. He or she seems badly damaged by an abusive church. That appears to happen all to frequently.

Only insomuch as that church, whatever it was, plainly and faithfully recounted what they believed.  It's a comfortable and convenient idea that the faithful have, to imagine that their church, whatever that church is.... doesn't do the same.

(January 31, 2017 at 1:26 pm)Astonished Wrote: I had been fairly sure that if indoctrination were to be completely halted, theism would die out in a generation, but now I'm not so optimistic. Still, even a 75% success rate would be massively instrumental in saving the world. Or if the shift were to reverse the proportion of believers to nonbelievers as it stands now, which I think is slightly less than that.

While I am no fan of any end-religion movement, I have to admit I'd like to see atheism become the numerical majority just to short circuit the tendency of religious groups to try to make secular society over in their own dated image.

(January 28, 2017 at 6:29 pm)Astonished Wrote: In all genuine honesty...and I just came up with this today, and someone making a threat about hell in one of the threads convinced me it has to be asked. Please, don't hate me, this is not done out of malice or perversion, and is simply a ghastly version of a reductio ad absurdum.

To any person who will tell a child that they are a miserable sinner and deserving of an eternity of fiery torment - regardless of how easy they claim it will be to avoid this (and remember, you still deserve it, you've just been given undeserved mercy via salvation, right? You're still scum but they let you into the country club) - what is stopping you from saying that child deserves to be, say, raped? Surely flesh-searing torment without end is a worse fate, and surely some lava-skinned demon down there is going to get their hands on you at some point, right? So why would you say one and not the other, if one is far, far worse and yet can't be experienced on earth?

I expect the answers will disregard the fact that we are disregarding salvation, and be flimsy excuses at best rather than actual answers. If this does not prove once and for all anyone who ever introduces the concept of hell to a child is no different from a predator, nothing will.

If this was a step too far, just delete it. I'm so disgusted with religious people right now, I can't even separate them from their faith.

I'm a Christian and agree that no one should abuse their child with that rubbish. Unfortunately, people pick and choose what they want to exploit, in the bible and in life. We may be part of a religion, but our relationship with God is personal. And the abuse that you talk about isn't as rampant as you think.

Also you need to separate the "chaff from the wheat"... as in any social setting. As you know, there are "good & bad" in every facet of life. People need to be responsible for their actions. I'm tired of being dragged into the mud, by "our bad" and people that exploit them for their own purpose of destroying the faithful. There are millions upon millions of religious that are good and decent people. So, its time for us (you & I) to root the "bad" out together! Not demonize the whole, because of the extremely minute evil parts.

As far as the scriptures, and premise itself? No one is automatically going to hell just because they don't believe, or are a sinner. That is rubbish. I could point to specifics in the Holy Gospel to give examples of redemption, but suffice it to say: "people choose" where they go in life; and the hereafter! Not bible distorters look for ways to subjugate the weak minded.

There are only 2 things God really requires of us: "To Love God. And to Love one another." You can't be a sinner doing those 2 things, always! Because, you won't be doing any of the other things on "the list" wrongly when you are doing the first 2. "Those are the greatest commandments. All the Law and the prophets depend on those 2 commandments." Matt 22:40,41

And that is why no one religious, or otherwise has any say in another man's salvation, or lack thereof. No one but the person, and God.

If I don't believe in god, then I don't love god. So I fail, I guess?

(February 1, 2017 at 3:14 pm)robvalue Wrote: If I don't believe in god, then I don't love god. So I fail, I guess?

That's your option. Free will is just that.

Belief is not a choice. And you just said I wouldn't be punished for not believing. But I will, because of the reason I stated. It's an inevitable conclusion.

Anyhow, I could never love something that is ordering me to love it "or else". That is a monster.

(February 1, 2017 at 4:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Belief is not a choice. And you just said I wouldn't be punished for not believing. But I will, because of the reason I stated. It's an inevitable conclusion.

Anyhow, I could never love something that is ordering me to love it "or else". That is a monster.

Well..... an observation, questions and a hypothetical @ you.

You say there isn't a god.

If you don't believe in God, why do you call Him a monster? Because of what others tell you about God? Or because you know that for a fact?

Do you Love Life? Do you Love your fellow man? Do you consider yourself honest, caring loving person? Would you stop to help someone you know is in trouble, or help them in some way? These are just generalizations.

What "IF" answering [yes] to all of these questions meant you were doing God's will, and in His good graces. Can you accept that as a possibility? And IF not, why?

(January 30, 2017 at 7:18 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

(January 28, 2017 at 7:29 pm)Thal Wrote: Didn't the admin just put a ban on clickbait topics titles?

It isn't clickbait if the OP is asking a genuine question. Not to mention there's no link anywhere pointing to any website considered clickbait.

Moving on now.

Definition of clickbait by admin: 

"Posting clickbait threads is not allowed. We consider clickbait threads to be those where the thread subject spills into the first post and hides otherwise relevant information, or where the thread subject is so generic it conveys almost nothing to a potential reader about the contents of the thread." (Bold by me.)