I would believe in God if...

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Are you pondering the personal "why" did God create the universe, as in to what purpose?

Ex:  Why did my wife and I choose to have children?   For our amusement, edification, to instill our values, procreation of the species, or to have someone to pass our gold bullion to?

Or is there a reductionist argument as to why the universe was/is a creation?

Ex:  The universe has an observable beginning where time and matter came into existence.  The universe appears governed by laws and constants and order not chaos permeates it. Life, consciousness, humanity, nature, etc appear designed.  This implies a designer. Thus there must be a designer.

Take a look at this:



I suppose you could make the argument that the snowflake appears designed. I don't dispute that the appearance must make some people think of them as exceedingly delicate works of deliberate art. But this is what happens when a droplet of water freezes. And it would happen precisely the same way if there were a designer or not.

I strongly suspect that 'appearance of design' is a provincial prejudice. Human beings have evolved a stunning level of conceit (this is not a bad thing, it is a survival trait), and thus people who advocate for the Argument From Design almost always crow something like, 'Look at the human eye!' or 'Look at our great, big, throbbing, tumescent consciousness!' and leap from there to the (no offense) idiotic conclusion that the universe was designed with human beings in mind.

There are microbes that eat sulfur. There are bacteria that happily feast on petroleum, others that consume plutonium, there are extremophiles that live in water hot enough to poach an egg, and lichens that dissolve frozen rocks to get the minerals they need. Something like 90-95% of the planet we live on is closed to us. The depths of the oceans teem with life at pressures and temperatures that would kill any unprotected human, camels can survive for 10 days in conditions that would kill you or I in 10 hours. The notion that the unimaginably vast universe in which we live was designed for a single species of bipedal primate is, quite simply, untenable.

Isn't it just as likely that things appear designed because we ourselves are designers?

Boru

[Chad32]

An answer besides "some concrete testable evidence", I'm not sure.Supposedly this being is omnipresent, and all knowing, but can't figure out how to get people to believe in him. The free will argument doesn't really fly, because demons believe he exists, but don't worship him, and they presumably have free will.

Of course there's a difference between believing something exists, and wanting to worship it. If the abrahamic god really existed, I wouldn't want anything to do with him.

[Neo-Scholastic]

If he could prove himself in a way that was satisfying to my intellect, and not just the emotions.  Proofs for and against god rely too much on incredulity.

God is the premise from which people reason, not the conclusion towards which they reason.

[PETE_ROSE]

Well said Boru, as always.

Whether our universe appears designed is a matter of opinion based on what we observe
and how we process that information. Could be we are predisposed to see design because we humans are designers.

A more philosophical question to what is more likely; is our observable universe a result of chance or purpose?

[Angrboda]

If he could prove himself in a way that was satisfying to my intellect, and not just the emotions.  Proofs for and against god rely too much on incredulity.

God is the premise from which people reason, not the conclusion towards which they reason.

Great. How do I differentiate that from just making shit up?

[The Valkyrie]

"I would believe in God if..."


...the lazy bugger ever showed up for work!

[ignoramus]

"And it would happen precisely the same way if there were a designer or not."

Boru, agree 100% but we can never know what a god designed snowflake could ever look like?
Maybe he doesn't like symmetry? Maybe he would imprint a logo of Jesus on all things he designs?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

A more philosophical question to what is more likely; is our observable universe a result of chance or purpose?

False dilemma, but I take your point.  Our observable universe is more likely to be the result of non-random self selection operating on the raw material of chance.

Why not purpose?  It seem an unassailable standard that a Being who could purposefully design a universe would have to be of an order of magnitude more complex than the universe itself.  That is to say that such a Being would have to be better ordered than the universe.

Why would such a Being opt to create a universe with so many inherent cock ups?  (steady on, vorlon)  Parasitic wasps, tooth decay, HIV, floods, earthquakes, cosmic radiation, insurance salesmen...could not an infinitely complex Being have instantiated a universe without these and other horrors?  It's no good saying, 'God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform' - that's simply 'I don't know' dressed in borrowed robes, it isn't remotely an explanation.

I choose the likelihood of a non-purposeful universe by the simple expedient of looking around me:  The universe I see is exactly the one I would expect to see if were the result of what you call 'chance':  not perfect, just good enough to get by.

Boru

[Seraphina]

Nothing would make me believe in god.

My favorite Hitchens quote:

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Nothing would make me believe in god.

My favorite Hitchens quote:

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

That makes me want to buy a car with a big enough bumper to put the sticker on.

Boru