What is logic?

[Lucanus]

I'm sorry but this is simply not true. If consciousness is such an abstract entity, how come damage to the brain can result in severely altered states of consciousness?
I mean look at this:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage (it's in Italian for your convenience)

Easy explained Luc.
When you drive your car and you get involved in an accident you car get smashed and most of the time you too get injured.
The consciousness being an abstract entity can not really get damaged but because is stuck inside the
pineal gland and the brain when the brain get damaged the consciousness that rely on the brain as his source of energy can not work properly that is why .............can result in severely altered states of consciousness........ as you say.

As far as the person is alive the consciousness is stuck inside this body-brain but as soon as the body-brain die the consciousness separate.
Even if the body was smashed under a roller machine the consciousness will not be touched.
She is immortal.

This is completely testable. Go on and test it! Get a Ph.D. in neuroscience, go squish some mouse's pineal gland and then see what happens. Most likely, they'll just lose the ability to sleep.

People have already studied the pineal gland to death. It's only function is the secretion of melatonin, which regulates the sleep-wake cycle. Get over it.

Also, how is consciousness "stuck" inside the body? If it is stuck, then it means that it has some interactions with the physical structures of the brain. How would you then study these interactions? If what you said was true, then we would be able to -indirectly- study consciousness with scientific means!

Even if it was something beyond what we can physically explain, then what would it be? How would you go about testing your hypothesis that consciousness is abstract and exists independently from the brain?

1) Energy and consciousness are the two sides of the same sheet.
One can not exist without the other.
Even science say that energy can not be destroyed so if energy can not be destroyed also consciousness
can not be destroyed.
2) NDEs are the evidence that consciousness never die so it is clear that consciousness once the body die
will be independent from the body.  

1) To our current scientific understanding, that is simply false. Consciousness does not seem to be "energy" as you put it. All the processes that make consciousness possible require energy in the form of chemical gradients and ATP, and they also require that this energy is released in a particular pattern. This, in turn, requires an actual physical scaffold (the Central Nervous System) to unfold. Without this scaffold, all these processes simply cannot go forward, and consciousness ceases to exist.

2) No they aren't. Because of the fact that they are -Near- Death Experiences. The body is evidently still alive during those moments, as proven by the fact that people actually recover from those and actually live to tell the tale. At most, what NDEs do is show what people experience in the moments just before death. But they definitely do NOT show what happens after.

[Little Rik]

Easy explained Luc.
When you drive your car and you get involved in an accident you car get smashed and most of the time you too get injured.
The consciousness being an abstract entity can not really get damaged but because is stuck inside the
pineal gland and the brain when the brain get damaged the consciousness that rely on the brain as his source of energy can not work properly that is why .............can result in severely altered states of consciousness........ as you say.

As far as the person is alive the consciousness is stuck inside this body-brain but as soon as the body-brain die the consciousness separate.
Even if the body was smashed under a roller machine the consciousness will not be touched.
She is immortal.

This is completely testable. Go on and test it! Get a Ph.D. in neuroscience, go squish some mouse's pineal gland and then see what happens. Most likely, they'll just lose the ability to sleep.

People have already studied the pineal gland to death. It's only function is the secretion of melatonin, which regulates the sleep-wake cycle. Get over it.

Wrong again Luc.

There are people that look for the hidden treasure and they never found it.
That doesn't mean that is not there.
If so far science has only found that the pineal gland secrete melatonin and nothing else then too bad for them.
On the other hand there are people that found what the physical science hasn't discovered yet.
These people however do not rely on physical science.
They rely on intuitional science.  

Also, how is consciousness "stuck" inside the body? If it is stuck, then it means that it has some interactions with the physical structures of the brain. How would you then study these interactions? If what you said was true, then we would be able to -indirectly- study consciousness with scientific means!

Wrong again Luc.
Who told you that if the consciousness is stuck inside the brain as I said the only way to find out is through the scientific means (your physical science)?
Is your view so restricted that must be the only way to find out?

1) Energy and consciousness are the two sides of the same sheet.
One can not exist without the other.
Even science say that energy can not be destroyed so if energy can not be destroyed also consciousness
can not be destroyed.
2) NDEs are the evidence that consciousness never die so it is clear that consciousness once the body die
will be independent from the body.  

1) To our current scientific understanding, that is simply false. Consciousness does not seem to be "energy" as you put it.

It is obvious that the current scientific understanding need a good kick in the backside.
As far as this science thinks that an abstract entity as the consciousness can be studied only through
a physical approach then they never find anything.

All the processes that make consciousness possible require energy in the form of chemical gradients and ATP, and they also require that this energy is released in a particular pattern. This, in turn, requires an actual physical scaffold (the Central Nervous System) to unfold. Without this scaffold, all these processes simply cannot go forward, and consciousness ceases to exist.

That is a load o'crap Luc.
NDEs experiences have already found that the consciousness exist even better once it separate from the body-mind.

2) No they aren't. Because of the fact that they are -Near- Death Experiences. The body is evidently still alive during those moments, as proven by the fact that people actually recover from those and actually live to tell the tale. At most, what NDEs do is show what people experience in the moments just before death. But they definitely do NOT show what happens after.

That is an other load of garbage Luc.
The fact that the .........body recover ......as you say doesn't mean that the body-brain never die.
Most science can not understand these phenomena yet.
These non believers can not see God so if God doesn't exist according to them then all is related to physical science and because this physical science can not see God and how the system works then
these people who had an NDE experience never really died.
How stupid.  

[downbeatplumb]

The pineal gland is the seat of the consciousness and when the consciousness is 100% pure you are God.

Ooh boy, can't wait to tell this to my Neurobiology professor when I go take the exam. /s

Rik, if all you're going to do is to throw out bald assertions without any proof to back them up, you're not going to have a fruitful conversation like... ever. Even outside of this forum. Go ahead, show me (a guy who's getting a Master's degree in Medical Biotechnology) HOW the pineal gland is the seat of consciousness. Come at me scrublord, I'm ripped.

And if you're interested, PM me in Italian. I'm honestly curious about what you actually think, and sometimes it just seems to me that half of the conversation is lost in translation.

Only half! I find his posts the equivalent of putting a million chimps in front of a typewriter but only giving them five minutes.

He remains the only person on the internet I have put on ignore.

[Angrboda]

The characteristic or dharma of human beings is to attain Brahma. It is, therefore, necessary to see whether Brahma exists or not, as it would be futile to attempt to get something which does not actually exist. If Brahma exists, we must know what It is.......

....There are innumerable individuals in this universe, and as átman or unit consciousness is reflected in each one, there appear to be many átmans or unit consciousnesses. The collective name for all these átmans or unit consciousnesses is Paramátman, Bhúmácaetanya, Brahma or Bhagaván. Just as twelve units make a dozen, twenty make a score, and the collective name for a very large number of soldiers is an army, the collective name for all the unit consciousnesses is Paramátman, Bhúmácaetanya or Bhagaván. The name Bhagaván should not be construed as a mighty human figure with powerful hands and feet. It is the collection of all our átmans. The nearest word in English which may be used for átman or unit consciousness is “soul”, so Bhagaván may also be called Universal Consciousness or Universal Soul. This shows that Bhagaván does exist and that It exists as Paramátman or Universal Soul, Bhúmácaetanya or Cosmic Consciousness, or Brahma, the Eternal Blessedness.

~ P.R.Sarkar, "Guru" of Ananda Marga movement

"Lots of souls exist, therefore God!"

The "guru" fails Logic 101.

[Little Rik]

The characteristic or dharma of human beings is to attain Brahma. It is, therefore, necessary to see whether Brahma exists or not, as it would be futile to attempt to get something which does not actually exist. If Brahma exists, we must know what It is.......

....There are innumerable individuals in this universe, and as átman or unit consciousness is reflected in each one, there appear to be many átmans or unit consciousnesses. The collective name for all these átmans or unit consciousnesses is Paramátman, Bhúmácaetanya, Brahma or Bhagaván. Just as twelve units make a dozen, twenty make a score, and the collective name for a very large number of soldiers is an army, the collective name for all the unit consciousnesses is Paramátman, Bhúmácaetanya or Bhagaván. The name Bhagaván should not be construed as a mighty human figure with powerful hands and feet. It is the collection of all our átmans. The nearest word in English which may be used for átman or unit consciousness is “soul”, so Bhagaván may also be called Universal Consciousness or Universal Soul. This shows that Bhagaván does exist and that It exists as Paramátman or Universal Soul, Bhúmácaetanya or Cosmic Consciousness, or Brahma, the Eternal Blessedness.

~ P.R.Sarkar, "Guru" of Ananda Marga movement

"Lots of souls exist, therefore God!"

The "guru" fails Logic 101.

When the logic is so so simple you find very very hard to understand.
That is a problem with all intellectuals.  

They just can not cope with simple things.
Intellectuals like a jungle of ideas so they can get lost in there.
They like getting lost.  

In fact their brains is a jungle of madness.  

[Alex K]

Someone needs to stand up to the experts!

(Kudos for who gets the reference)

[Angrboda]

"Lots of souls exist, therefore God!"

The "guru" fails Logic 101.

When the logic is so so simple you find very very hard to understand.  
That is a problem with all intellectuals.  

They just can not cope with simple things.
Intellectuals like a jungle of ideas so they can get lost in there.
They like getting lost.  

In fact their brains is a jungle of madness.  

So you're an anti-intellectual in addition to all your other failings. Sour grapes I'd say.

Only someone who knows or pretend to know the truth can judge and because you did judge these people you put yourself in a position to know, that is why i did asked you such a thing.

Well if it's so simple, then you should have no trouble explaining it to us. Sarkar starts out by explaining that material things cannot deliver permanent satisfaction because they're finite, that you need the infinite, i.e. Brahma, to provide permanent satisfaction. He then makes a lot of assertions about atman and the nature of mind, and concludes by saying that the foregoing proves the existence of Brahma, i.e. the infinite. This is nothing less than a proof that permanent satisfaction is possible.

We're in luck, that's exactly what this thread is about! If you could prove that permanent satisfaction is possible, i.e. that Brahma exists, you'd be way ahead in proving the importance of all the rest of the stuff you talk about. So I suggest you prove to us that it is possible, using Sarkar's essay as a guide. If you can't do that, then you're full of shit and you know nothing about Brahma or permanent peace of mind.

So get to proving it! Enough trash talk, let's see some action!

[TheRealJoeFish]

baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more?

[Lucanus]

Wrong again Luc.

There are people that look for the hidden treasure and they never found it.
That doesn't mean that is not there.
If so far science has only found that the pineal gland secrete melatonin and nothing else then too bad for them.
On the other hand there are people that found what the physical science hasn't discovered yet.
These people however do not rely on physical science.
They rely on intuitional science.  

So what is this "Intuitional Science"? Because to me it only sounds like a bunch of made up assertions. But bear with me for a second.

If something you say is true, you should be able to make predictions based on it, right?

Then, by testing these predictions, you would be able to ascertain the validity of your statement.

So, returning to your argument, if you say that the pineal gland is the seat of consciousness, what should happen - according to your "Intuitional Science" - if the pineal gland were to be removed or damaged?

Wrong again Luc.
Who told you that if the consciousness is stuck inside the brain as I said the only way to find out is through the scientific means (your physical science)?
Is your view so restricted that must be the only way to find out?

1) To our current scientific understanding, that is simply false. Consciousness does not seem to be "energy" as you put it.

It is obvious that the current scientific understanding need a good kick in the backside.
As far as this science thinks that an abstract entity as the consciousness can be studied only through
a physical approach then they never find anything.

And how should they study it then? Come on, put your money on the table! And again, how do you explain the (undeniable) connections between what is allegedly abstract and the material structures of the organism?

2) No they aren't. Because of the fact that they are -Near- Death Experiences. The body is evidently still alive during those moments, as proven by the fact that people actually recover from those and actually live to tell the tale. At most, what NDEs do is show what people experience in the moments just before death. But they definitely do NOT show what happens after.

That is an other load of garbage Luc.
The fact that the .........body recover ......as you say doesn't mean that the body-brain never die.
Most science can not understand these phenomena yet.
These non believers can not see God so if God doesn't exist according to them then all is related to physical science and because this physical science can not see God and how the system works then
these people who had an NDE experience never really died.
How stupid.  

Wow, holy mother of over-simplifications.
First of all, about 50% of the subjects who report NDEs are not clinically dead - in fact, they aren't even close to dying.

Second of all, it is not at all clear *when* an NDE actually happens! And you cannot rule out the (very mundane, and boring, I get it) possibility that it happens right before the "flat EEG" (if that even happens) or during the patient's recovery from it.

Besides, many typical features of NDEs (such as seeing light, being at peace and feeling clear of mind) can actually be attributed to malfunctions in specific areas of the brain such as the locus coeruleus or more generally to hypoxia. And all of this is the results of validated observations and studies, not just guesswork and pats on the back (as this is how you seem to think the scientific community works).

So... No. NDEs do not prove that consciousness exists independently from the brain. Try again.

NOTA BENE: I'm not saying that it's impossible for consciousness to exist separately from the brain! All I'm saying is that the evidence you are bringing up is not valid and can be explained by a simpler (in the sense that it does not require to define a whole separate new section of reality) materialistic model! Again, if you don't understand something I've said here, PM me and I'll try to be clearer.

****SOURCES****

https://afanporsaber.com/wp-content/uplo...iences.pdf

Owens, J.E. et al. (1990) Features of near-death experiences in relation to whether or not the patients were near death. Lancet 336, 1175–1177

And as you can see, it's not like neuroscientists are puzzled and stuck in a problem they can't solve - they are working all these issues out! There are problems, sure, but after all it can be said that they are really doing great considering the complexity of the issues at stake!

[Little Rik]

When the logic is so so simple you find very very hard to understand.  
That is a problem with all intellectuals.  

They just can not cope with simple things.
Intellectuals like a jungle of ideas so they can get lost in there.
They like getting lost.  

In fact their brains is a jungle of madness.  

So you're an anti-intellectual in addition to all your other failings.  Sour grapes I'd say.

Only someone who knows or pretend to know the truth can judge and because you did judge these people you put yourself in a position to know, that is why i did asked you such a thing.

Well if it's so simple, then you should have no trouble explaining it to us.  Sarkar starts out by explaining that material things cannot deliver permanent satisfaction because they're finite, that you need the infinite, i.e. Brahma, to provide permanent satisfaction.  He then makes a lot of assertions about atman and the nature of mind, and concludes by saying that the foregoing proves the existence of Brahma, i.e. the infinite.  This is nothing less than a proof that permanent satisfaction is possible.

We're in luck, that's exactly what this thread is about! If you could prove that permanent satisfaction is possible, i.e. that Brahma exists, you'd be way ahead in proving the importance of all the rest of the stuff you talk about.   So I suggest you prove to us that it is possible, using Sarkar's essay as a guide.  If you can't do that, then you're full of shit and you know nothing about Brahma or permanent peace of mind.

So get to proving it!  Enough trash talk, let's see some action!

Correct.
Enough trash talk so now you start engaging in practice because the practice is the only way to experience the permanent peace of mind.

I can not pass to you the progress I did achieved so far so you can not know what it is all about but even if I could I would not.
Why?
Because you got to get up your shiny backside from the lazy chair and start doing your own hard work like everybody else.  

I do charity to those in need but I will not give anything to fools that  will waste what is given to them.

(color mine)

---

So what is this "Intuitional Science"? Because to me it only sounds like a bunch of made up assertions. But bear with me for a second.
If something you say is true, you should be able to make predictions based on it, right?
Then, by testing these predictions, you would be able to ascertain the validity of your statement.

Didn't I already explained this point with the iceberg example?
We see the part above the water but we can not see the part below.
Intuitional science is about bringing the part of our consciousness that is below our awareness above.
Above where?
Within our perception so the unconscious mind become conscious mind.
It involve a lot of hard work by practicing yoga.
How do you give validity that this it is true and it works?
Simple. By practicing you get results and these results are the evidence but you can also see the evidence by comparing someone health and spiritual strength.

So, returning to your argument, if you say that the pineal gland is the seat of consciousness, what should happen - according to your "Intuitional Science" - if the pineal gland were to be removed or damaged?

This is a very interesting question but the answer is very very simple.
If the pineal gland is removed the person may or may not survive.
These days in most cases people survive thanks to clever surgeries.
Consciousness will be affected badly however but she will not go away.
Consciousness only go away or separate from the body when the person die physically speaking.
It will still stay in that part of the brain where the pineal gland was but because the support of the pineal gland is gone the consciousness will not be able to perform like before.

First of all, about 50% of the subjects who report NDEs are not clinically dead - in fact, they aren't even close to dying.

That is not true.
If you read the NDEs experiences you will find that people really die physically speaking.

Second of all, it is not at all clear *when* an NDE actually happens! And you cannot rule out the (very mundane, and boring, I get it) possibility that it happens right before the "flat EEG" (if that even happens) or during the patient's recovery from it.

Wrong again Luc.
If you read the NDEs experiences you will see that most people die all of a sudden many times due to serious accidents.
In these cases the EEG get flat immediately and before that these people where fully conscious.

Besides, many typical features of NDEs (such as seeing light, being at peace and feeling clear of mind) can actually be attributed to malfunctions in specific areas of the brain such as the locus coeruleus or more generally to hypoxia. And all of this is the results of validated observations and studies, not just guesswork and pats on the back (as this is how you seem to think the scientific community works.

So... No. NDEs do not prove that consciousness exists independently from the brain. Try again.

Wrong again Luc.
When you have a malfunction in the brain you can not build up a clear, sharp and vivid experience.

NOTA BENE: I'm not saying that it's impossible for consciousness to exist separately from the brain! All I'm saying is that the evidence you are bringing up is not valid and can be explained by a simpler (in the sense that it does not require to define a whole separate new section of reality) materialistic model! Again, if you don't understand something I've said here, PM me and I'll try to be clearer.

Bring it on Luc.
Bring on your evidence if you can.  

And as you can see, it's not like neuroscientists are puzzled and stuck in a problem they can't solve - they are working all these issues out! There are problems, sure, but after all it can be said that they are really doing great considering the complexity of the issues at stake!

Good on them Luc.
Neuroscience is quite good but not good enough to understand how the consciousness works.