Without the Shedding of Blood There is No Remission of Sin

[vorlon13]

BTW, as for the precise wording of the topic, I have to admit some of my most favorite sins have been accompanied by minor rectal hemorrhaging . . . .

[SteveII]

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1. Part of being God is being holy and just (essential attributes). His justice demands that there be an atonement for anything short of holy.

So justice for himself, not for us? Why the hell does God need justice for himself anyway? You'd think God would be way beyond all this bullshit he's imposed on himself and on us.

You miss the point of essential attribute. God does not impose these things. The term 'justice' is defined by this attribute that could not have been any other way. There is no "justice for..."--it is just 'justice'.

[Chad32]

What makes you think justice is an essential attribute of god? People say it's in his nature, but how can we know for sure? Certainly not from the bible, unless you have a habit of taking people at their word by default, despite what their actions say.

[GrandizerII]

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So justice for himself, not for us? Why the hell does God need justice for himself anyway? You'd think God would be way beyond all this bullshit he's imposed on himself and on us.

You miss the point of essential attribute. God does not impose these things. The term 'justice' is defined by this attribute that could not have been any other way. There is no "justice for..."--it is just 'justice'.

The problem is that "being just" is not part of the definition of the classical theist God. You assume it has to be an attribute of God, provided God exists. And why does God being "just" have to be in a way that seems to serve his own interests anyway? There seems nothing great about a God who can't let this whole sin concept go. Rather than be just and holy (which sounds so damn human to me), why not instead be like the God of universalism, who is all about eventual reconciliation for all? This seems more divine to me than the God that you espouse.

[Aroura]

How is that the only blood sacrifice that atones us, if it's even a blood sacrifice that -can- atone us..if that's even possible?

UIf it wre possible, and was a blood sacrifice that could atone us, why would we accept the offer?  Can we accept the offer and remain consistently moral agents?

No amount of repeating the articles of your faith can or will answer these questions.

A blood sacrifice cannot atone for us (see Hebrews 10:4). Justice and holiness are essential qualities of God. If God's holiness and justice required that sin results in total separation from God for eternity for each person, everyone was doomed (we have all sinned and are not holy).  As the penalty of sin was death for us, God's substitution required death. However, because he was eternal and perfect, his death was sufficient for all of mankind--thus satisfying the requirements of his essential nature.

Why did he wait through 4k years of people dying without being saved?  What happened to the people's "souls" who died before this supposed Jesus god/man was murdered to save future people?

[Lek]

Why did he wait through 4k years of people dying without being saved?  What happened to the people's "souls" who died before this supposed Jesus god/man was murdered to save future people?

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice. Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

[Minimalist]

[Lek]

Yeah. I just got back from church and felt the need to say something meaningful. Now if only you could say something meaningful, that would be a shocker.

[Athene]

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice.  Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

"So very....MEANINGFUL...*sniff*
Yes...you should continue to post, just as you get back from church, Brother. Those words cut so deeply...yet they're so...beautiful. Haunting, even!"

[Aroura]

Why did he wait through 4k years of people dying without being saved?  What happened to the people's "souls" who died before this supposed Jesus god/man was murdered to save future people?

The people who lived and died before Christ are saved the same way we are - by the same sacrifice.  Those who responded to God's call in their lives are saved through Jesus Christ.

What happened to them between the time they died and Jesus died?  So all people pre-christ were saved, but now we have new rules and only some of us are saved?

Ugh.  This is like arguing if Superman gets his flight through willpower or strength.  Or if Neville was also the chosen one.  With works of fiction, it's whatever the reader interprets it to be.  You guys cannot even agree among yourselves.  Great job "god" did of communicating his perfect will to us.