Religions are not equals

[Thumpalumpacus]

but if those 'pockets of sanity' are actually apostates of their own professed religion  . . .

See the problem ?

Indeed. Even as BB posits an NTS fallacy, he seems to be practicing it.

[Crunchy]

And again, you can't say how I've misrepresented you. 

And again you misrepresent me, but in a one-liner for a change, so I'll tackle it. It's not 'can't', it's 'won't'. Your style is to make a lot of assertions about my positions based on very little information. Unsurprisingly, the result lacks accuracy. I don't think it's worth my time to engage you on your miscomprehension of my positions. It's certainly not enjoyable, and I'm here to enjoy myself. People who tell you what you think are generally assholes, possibly without exception, but my sample size is, thankfully, small; and mostly theists.

Well, I haven't made any assertions about your positions nor am I telling you what you think. I quoted you. I used copy and paste then disagreed with you, then explained why. Can't or won't seem to amount to the same thing from my POV.

If you're now telling me that you meant something else that's fine even if you won't say what that is. But I promise you, I don't come here to argue with anyone by putting words in their mouths. 

I also think it's worth noting that I often agree with allot of things you say in many threads, just not this one.

---

I think this is a sensible approach that is often ignored.

it is, sometimes. There are indeed knee-jerk respondents.

But there are also people who lay the PC accusation whenever someone points out bigotry.

That sword cuts both ways.

Again, I agree.
But find me one public critic of Islam who has not been labelled a racist, bigot, or islamophobe in the media. Even muslims or ex muslims who are critical get this treatment. Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Dean Obeidallah, hell, most of Salon make a living at this.

Sam Harris wrote a scathing book about christianity and not an accusation of bigotry
Bill Maher used to destroy christianity and only got complaints from christians, not liberals.
Richard Dawkins.. same
Hitchens.. same

As soon as they turned their ire towards islam though... bigots and racists and islamophobes. 

I will say however that there has been some push back. Here is a piece from Huffington post about it that does a pretty good job.
Dear Liberals, Being critical of Islam is not racism

[Thumpalumpacus]

As soon as they turned their ire towards islam though... bigots and racists and islamophobes. 

Some have called them that, but I don't think that represents a majority opinion of any of them. The fact is that bigotry against Muslims has been the case here in America longer than you or I have been alive.

Now, if those same authors came out and said "Blacks are a serious problem" based on, say, the minority represented by prison numbers, would you wonder if they had a bigoted agenda? I would.

I don't believe any of those guys have a bigoted agenda, but I know damned well that many folks use the argumentation of Harris et al to buttress their preexisting bigotry.

[WinterHold]

Again, I agree.
But find me one public critic of Islam who has not been labelled a racist, bigot, or islamophobe in the media. Even muslims or ex muslims who are critical get this treatment. Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Dean Obeidallah, hell, most of Salon make a living at this.

Sam Harris wrote a scathing book about christianity and not an accusation of bigotry
Bill Maher used to destroy christianity and only got complaints from christians, not liberals.
Richard Dawkins.. same
Hitchens.. same

As soon as they turned their ire towards islam though... bigots and racists and islamophobes. 

I will say however that there has been some push back. Here is a piece from Huffington post about it that does a pretty good job.
Dear Liberals, Being critical of Islam is not racism

Picking up on the weak guy will stir a storm of questions from anybody that is not ashamed from asking themselves: why?

Muslims in general come from poor countries. So poor they can't even afford a good Internet connection; see Egypt, Sudan, Yemen for examples.
See Pakistan and India to cry.
See Afghanistan to wish that you were never born.

Picking up a fight with this type of people, while you are armed with nuclear weapons, while they are armed with hunger and rocks, at best cases ancient soviet rifles and bombs that kill the attacker first, does stir lots of question and assumptions for me.

Jets against skinny flip-flops and ancient soviet rifles? Really?


Islam is a religion; many believe in it. Get over it.

The war that requires real courage is fighting hunger together, fighting thirst together, fighting ignorance together -The first step is you buying a dictionary-.

[Crunchy]

As soon as they turned their ire towards islam though... bigots and racists and islamophobes. 

Some have called them that, but I don't think that represents a majority opinion of any of them. The fact is that bigotry against Muslims has been the case here in America longer than you or I have been alive.

Now, if those same authors came out and said "Blacks are a serious problem" based on, say, the minority represented by prison numbers, would you wonder if they had a bigoted agenda? I would.

I don't believe any of those guys have a bigoted agenda, but I know damned well that many folks use the argumentation of Harris et al to buttress their preexisting bigotry

Since I already agreed with you previously I'm glad to see you agree with the entire thrust of this thread. 
Religions are not equals, religions are not people, and it's a mistake to label critics of Islam as racists or bigots just because of that criticism.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Some have called them that, but I don't think that represents a majority opinion of any of them. The fact is that bigotry against Muslims has been the case here in America longer than you or I have been alive.

Now, if those same authors came out and said "Blacks are a serious problem" based on, say, the minority represented by prison numbers, would you wonder if they had a bigoted agenda? I would.

I don't believe any of those guys have a bigoted agenda, but I know damned well that many folks use the argumentation of Harris et al to buttress their preexisting bigotry

Since I already agreed with you previously I'm glad to see you agree with the entire thrust of this thread. 
Religions are not equals, religions are not people, and it's a mistake to label critics of Islam as racists or bigots just because of that criticism.

I don't agree with the entire thrust. Religions aren't people, but they are interpreted by people, and as such, too many folks -- on both sides of the argument --conflate the two, wrongly, in my opinion. Some Muslims cotton to the extremist views, others are cafeteria Muslims, but get defensive when they're broad-brushed.

I can certainly understand that reaction, being an atheist. Lord knows we've been broad-brushed enough that we ought to be cautious we don't do the same thing ourselves.

[brewer]

OP: The same can be said of cults. Or The Elks. Or Country Clubs. Or the mob.

I'm anti homeopath, anti naturopath and anti chiropractor. I really don't care what other people say that makes me. 

Now excuse me, time to flip the Zoroastrian baby on the grill.

[Ravenshire]

How many Mormons does it take to change a light bulb? Two...one to make the replacement and another to say it wasn't changed.

How many christians does it take to change a light bulb?

Just the pastor, but it takes the whole congregation to spread the word about the resurrected light.

[Crunchy]

Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
I don't agree with the entire thrust. Religions aren't people, but they are interpreted by people, and as such, too many folks -- on both sides of the argument --conflate the two, wrongly, in my opinion. Some Muslims cotton to the extremist views, others are cafeteria Muslims, but get defensive when they're broad-brushed. 

I can certainly understand that reaction, being an atheist. Lord knows we've been broad-brushed enough that we ought to be cautious we don't do the same thing ourselves.

You say you don't agree but I can't see any disagreement from what you've written.
You agree that religions aren't people and also agree that people do conflate the two on both sides. Once again, I agree with you but I don't see how that is any invalidation of the thrust of this thread. I think you're bringing up a related yet separate issue (that we also agree on)

I'm thinking that because I only was only discussing the "liberal" mistakes in calling critics of islam racists that you may have assumed I don't see the "conservative" mistake in lumping all muslims together into one monolithic group. I actually don't do that as I believe both liberals who excuse islam by labelling critics as racists and conservatives who see Muslim people as islam itself are both failing at separating the religion from the adherents.  I didn't make that clear.  However, that was because the thread was about the labelling of critics as "racist" and "bigots". 
We can certainly discuss the issue of seeing people as a monolithic representation of a text book and it is certainly part of the problem that arises when we conflate people and religion but it seems we already agree on that as well.

Just one nitpick: 
You said that people interpret religion. I bring this up because I've heard this before in the context that it is racist to see one religion as worse than another because it's people who interpret religion and you are therefore seeing one person as worse than another if you see one religion as worse than another. (which I know is not how you meant it)
It's true but irrelevant as people interpret literally everything. Everything that is interpreted is interpreted by people. Quantum Mechanics is interpreted by people and yet no one conflates Quantum Mechanics with people. As far as I can see it's only religion that gets this special treatment.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was lumping you in with the groupthinkers. That wasn't my intention at all.