Christianity and Suicide

[Drich]

Christianity claims that God made you, and he loves you very much. If you kill yourself you will anger him, because you didn't apreccciate his gift, your life, and he will send you to Hell.

No. You will be judged just like everyone else based on what God gave you to deal with and how you dealt with your life. If God sent you straight to Hell that would be the unforgivable sin, and the bible does not label it as such. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheme of the holy Spirit.

Guess what, nobody ever has choosed to be born, and not everybody has had a good life. People usually kill themeselves because they've been traumatised or hate themeselves. 

or a whole lot of other reasons.

If God didn't want people to kill themeselves, why would He allow them to had bad lives? And if life is a "gift" than wouldn't you be allowed to do what you wan't with it?

God doesn't want you to Kill yourself because this whole life is nothing but the breifest vapor and was meant to give you an oppertunity to choose what you want to do for eternity... If killing yourself means you hate life then maybe Hell is not such a bad option.

When you give someone a present you expect them to do whatever they want with it. If God can't accept that He's a whiny little bitch.
Of course suicide is bad, but it's bad because you will also miss the good things in life, it's bad because it saddens people who love you, not because it will piss off some immature man in the sky. Bad has many shades, not all bad things need to be punished.
Suicidals need help in order to become happy, to enjoy life.

happiness is not the key here it is leaning to be content.

Psychology claims the exact opposite of Christianity.

which is?

To discriminate against gays, women and atheists is one thing for Christianity.

book chapter and verse?

Sure, it's bad, really bad to hate people for being different. But to hate on people for not wanting to live is more than disgusting!

why?

[Astonished]

This is why anyone who attempts to indoctrinate a child should be brought up on charges.

That is highly subjective. No parent, regardless of religion likes others telling them how to raise their kids. It would depend on what they are selling the kid. I do think if you are selling a child bigoted superior crap and basing that on religion, that can have a negative effect on the child setting them up not to have good social skills.

But is is impossible to prevent parents in the civil west from them selling their kids the religions of their parents. Even liberal theists sell their children their religions. So this would be a "depends" not an absolute.

You fail to recognize the distinction between indoctrination and teaching. Telling a child selectively edited excerpts from the bible if they believe those are good morality tales is one thing, telling them that they are true, forbidding them to question it, and every other horrible thing that comes along with real indoctrination, THAT is what is violates those children's human rights. Using those as fairy tales in the same way as Aesop's fables and Grimm stories is entirely fine, as they won't become any more prevalent in those kids' lives than the latter examples.

That being said, fuck those parents who complain about not being able to brainwash their kids.

[Brian37]

That is highly subjective. No parent, regardless of religion likes others telling them how to raise their kids. It would depend on what they are selling the kid. I do think if you are selling a child bigoted superior crap and basing that on religion, that can have a negative effect on the child setting them up not to have good social skills.

But is is impossible to prevent parents in the civil west from them selling their kids the religions of their parents. Even liberal theists sell their children their religions. So this would be a "depends" not an absolute.

You fail to recognize the distinction between indoctrination and teaching. Telling a child selectively edited excerpts from the bible if they believe those are good morality tales is one thing, telling them that they are true, forbidding them to question it, and every other horrible thing that comes along with real indoctrination, THAT is what is violates those children's human rights. Using those as fairy tales in the same was as Aesop's fables and Grimm stories is entirely fine, as they won't become any more prevalent in those kids' lives than the latter examples.

That being said, fuck those parents who complain about not being able to brainwash their kids.

I don't think it is mentally healthy at all to tell a kid about everyone around them that disagrees with them, "They are all evil and will burn in hell, so don't be like them", is really abuse I agree much to the same degree if those same parents convinced an underage kid they should not get medical treatment. 

The disgusting irony about the far right in America is that they are all ready to teach their own kids absolutism while rightfully pointing out the abuse in the east of the parents indoctrinating their kids to the point of absolutism.

[Astonished]

You fail to recognize the distinction between indoctrination and teaching. Telling a child selectively edited excerpts from the bible if they believe those are good morality tales is one thing, telling them that they are true, forbidding them to question it, and every other horrible thing that comes along with real indoctrination, THAT is what is violates those children's human rights. Using those as fairy tales in the same was as Aesop's fables and Grimm stories is entirely fine, as they won't become any more prevalent in those kids' lives than the latter examples.

That being said, fuck those parents who complain about not being able to brainwash their kids.

I don't think it is mentally healthy at all to tell a kid about everyone around them that disagrees with them, "They are all evil and will burn in hell, so don't be like them", is really abuse I agree much to the same degree if those same parents convinced an underage kid they should not get medical treatment. 

The disgusting irony about the far right in America is that they are all ready to teach their own kids absolutism while rightfully pointing out the abuse in the east of the parents indoctrinating their kids to the point of absolutism.

That's called Cognitive Dissonance. That actually gives me an idea for a children's book to help reverse indoctrination, and give easy definitions for these terms and funny illustrations...

[Mystical]

Christianity claims that God made you, and he loves you very much. If you kill yourself you will anger him, because you didn't apreccciate his gift, your life, and he will send you to Hell.

No. You will be judged just like everyone else based on what God gave you to deal with and how you dealt with your life. If God sent you straight to Hell that would be the unforgivable sin, and the bible does not label it as such. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheme of the holy Spirit.

*b by me

Thaaaatssss the one, Lek. Fuck the Holy Spirit and fuck your god. 
All talk and no action still? 

My DOG is more moral than the god of Abraham. If I go to hell for rejecting him so be it. At least I won't be a hypocritical butt sniffer who is too weak to stand up for what's right. What if you were killed in a car crash and your wife lost all hope and killed herself? Would you be like, oh okay I guess she deserves what she gets godman, you're totally awesome let's go back to singing your praise while you watch her get tossed in a fiery lake and tormeted.. forever ?

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Oh, sorry to pull on your strings. Be happy! I am.
I'm not ashamed of my situation, I love my life. Every day is a "blessing". I live to love, and I love to live. If only I could live more. I'd still have the same goals now as I did before my illness came to a head. It halted my life in terms of regularity, but I have lived many lives since then happy to report.

I want to help people. I want to spread love and goodness in this world. I'm here at these forums because I've come to know many people here that are more down to earth than most people I've come across during my entire lifetime! It's fantastic. I love meeting different people of differing beliefs. I do not, however, put up with biblical apologists nor will I allow someone so out of touch with life judge me.

Anyone who pulls out the destitution card is a pathetic apologist who needs to get off their asses and go see some of the real world. I suggest volunteering for the WHO or Red Cross if they truly hold themselves accountable to their beliefs. Go tell that skeleton baby with a vulture behind it, that this is all gods plan and that Jesus loves him. Or just spend a day at the VA, or at a homeless shelter. Child's canicer unit. Anything, really. Tossing money in a collection basket and considering your duty fulfilled is monkeys work.

When I was at work with my mom where she cared for a 17yr old who has the mind of a toddler and the body of someone with dystonia. Daily seizures, if he got excited or upset or just for no reason.. seizures. Regularly needs his spit sucked from his chin, which is perpetually raw from a lifetime of such. He had a seizure. He hates them so much, and I can't blame him. But mom just held him, and wiped his vomit and cradled him like a baby.. and she said oh honey it's okay it's okay Jesus loves you as he just shook his head no no no in response, with tears running down his face. I don't fault her or anyone for trying to comfort someone with love,wherever it may be coming from. But I think his reaction speaks for itself. And her love is precious. Even to this day, albeit she's in a lesbian relationshup to the best partner I've ever seen her with--she still quotes Jesus and believes in the bible and heaven. Not so much hell, but I'm not going to be the one to unsolicited knock on her beliefs like these Christians come here specifically to do to us.

If her belief makes her happy, so be it. My non belief has set me free and I've lost so many complexes I can hardly contain my excitement! I'm free to love freely, and there's nothing on this earth, more precious than that.

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I love that you can have that outlook and proclaim it so confidently. I haven't endured that much by comparison but (and I am not so naive that I don't realize it comes out rather frequently and easily) it's made me very bitter and I don't generally enjoy life very much because I don't have a very easy time seeing the good. I wish I had the kind of strength you do. But then I see parents leading kids down the same path I nearly got led down if a few more bad turns had let certain folk be more present in my early life than they otherwise did...it shatters all the potential good I can see beyond them.

Even better, you can say it to every theist who thinks they've got the right idea about how we do feel, or should feel, when things aren't their brightest. Let it snap their necks with how fiercely it shocks them to hear that they're dead wrong. And be proud everything didn't make you feel so weak and worthless that you had to turn to an imaginary friend just to survive or feel better. Every supposedly inspirational story from the faithful I've ever heard combined can't hold a candle to that.

It was hard and still is, when things are at their worst for me, to have my family either try to console me with heaven and think I'll come running back. 
On the other hand it's equally as hard to know what to say to them when they go through their own hardships! Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you are excluded from the apathy and desolation you may feel in this life about yourself or for others. I heard this in a song last fall and it stuck: "Don't be fooled by the emptiness, because there's so much room left for happiness!"

Yes, our hearts break and we must rebuild them. Life fails us and we have to deal with it. I've had countless doctors straight up shake their heads when they meet me after having read my chart, and say they aren't sure if they'd be able to live my life, even having some say they'd have given up long ago. I tell them there's no way I could live their lives, and just stop that nonsense right there and then! 

As for finding good amidst the bad, I heard someone on this forum say once, that they asked their mom about why there's so much suffering in the world. She said, look for the helpers. They're always out there. 

I am a helper. I am a survivor. I've been through too much to give up now, and when I do die I hope it isn't in a hospital. That is all, and for me, it's enough. Keep searching for your own piece of happpiness in this life, I hope you find it!

[Astonished]

No. You will be judged just like everyone else based on what God gave you to deal with and how you dealt with your life. If God sent you straight to Hell that would be the unforgivable sin, and the bible does not label it as such. There is only one unforgivable sin and that is blaspheme of the holy Spirit.

Thaaaatssss the one, Lek. Fuck the Holy Spirit and fuck your god. 
All talk and no action still? 

My DOG is more moral than the god of Abraham. If I go to hell for rejecting him so be it. At least I won't be a hypocritical butt sniffer who is too weak to stand up for what's right. What if you were killed in a car crash and your wife lost all hope and killed herself? Would you be like, oh okay I guess she deserves what she gets godman, you're totally awesome let's go back to singing your praise while you watch her get tossed in a fiery lake and tormeted.. forever ?

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I love that you can have that outlook and proclaim it so confidently. I haven't endured that much by comparison but (and I am not so naive that I don't realize it comes out rather frequently and easily) it's made me very bitter and I don't generally enjoy life very much because I don't have a very easy time seeing the good. I wish I had the kind of strength you do. But then I see parents leading kids down the same path I nearly got led down if a few more bad turns had let certain folk be more present in my early life than they otherwise did...it shatters all the potential good I can see beyond them.

Even better, you can say it to every theist who thinks they've got the right idea about how we do feel, or should feel, when things aren't their brightest. Let it snap their necks with how fiercely it shocks them to hear that they're dead wrong. And be proud everything didn't make you feel so weak and worthless that you had to turn to an imaginary friend just to survive or feel better. Every supposedly inspirational story from the faithful I've ever heard combined can't hold a candle to that.

It was hard and still is, when things are at their worst for me, to have my family either try to console me with heaven and think I'll come running back. 
On the other hand it's equally as hard to know what to say to them when they go through their own hardships! Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you are excluded from the apathy and desolation you may feel in this life about yourself or for others. I heard this in a song last fall and it stuck: "Don't be fooled by the emptiness, because there's so much room left for happiness!"

Yes, our hearts break and we must rebuild them. Life fails us and we have to deal with it. I've had countless doctors straight up shake their heads when they meet me after having read my chart, and say they aren't sure if they'd be able to live my life, even having some say they'd have given up long ago. I tell them there's no way I could live their lives, and just stop that nonsense right there and then! 

As for finding good amidst the bad, I heard someone on this forum say once, that they asked their mom about why there's so much suffering in the world. She said, look for the helpers. They're always out there. 

I am a helper. I am a survivor. I've been through too much to give up now, and when I do die I hope it isn't in a hospital. That is all, and for me, it's enough. Keep searching for your own piece of happpiness in this life, I hope you find it!

How fucking unprofessional of those doctors to editorialize like that! Fucking dickholes, you're not paying them to critique your health or condition, just to treat or evaluate it medically (if it's possible to do.) But I do wish I had some semblance of family to help during my darkest times, sitting alone in an orphanage staring at the walls with nothing but the smell of piss, shit and vomit to entertain me, or living out of a borrwoed car after I turned 18 because the system fucking sucks for emancipated foster youth.

But I do have a lot of helpers now, thankfully, I've just got bad problems with depression so it's hard to feel good about that unless it's staring me in the face, and even then internally I feel like I don't deserve it. But I can't blame religion for making me feel that way, just simple parental neglect.

[Godscreated]

I see things far clearer than you can imagine, I don't wear blinders. I understand you do not believe, but just because you do not believe doesn't make the only God not real. none of the other so called gods have ever tried to contact me, the God of creation and salvation brought me into a belief of Him and the proved himself to me. I'm not at fault for your disbelief nor is God, he's given you the choice between Him and yourself, the same as He did with Adam and Eve. My Christian walk has change over the years somethings I was dead set on I'm no longer holding on to them, it's a growth process that takes a life time and more, just as life in human relationships. The difference is that I can have this relationship for eternity.

GC

I understand that there could exist things that I do not yet believe in. Until I have a good reason to believe in them, though, I am not going to. Your confidence level alone is not a good enough reason. People of other religions are as confident in their beliefs, if not more so, than you. Why should I believe your claims over theirs?

I'm 100% sure that God exists, He has without doubt shown himself to me. What you believe is your choice, I can't nor would I try to make it for you.

Are you understanding my position yet? So far you are just repeating the fact that you are confident in your beliefs.

That is all Christ said I needed to do, show others why I believe. This is what I do here, I do not beat anyone over the head or shove it down their throats.

That's not going to do it for me. I'm very open minded, but I need more than that to go on before my mind will be changed. I'm also not trying to persuade you out of your beliefs at all, because I don't care at all what you happen to believe. I'm just wondering why you're putting so much effort into trying to persuade others without anything solid to actually give them. God has never shown up to give me any real reason to believe, despite my many years of devout belief, so maybe you can do something where he has not. I'm all ears.

I can't do anymore than give my reasons for my belief. What is it you would have me to do, give you proof of God, that's what He does when you come to faith in Him. I keep trying because I care even if you do not believe I do. God has said He will always be there for those who truly want to know Him. Like you have said others in there religions are devout and I agree, but it gets them nowhere because their faith is misplaced, could it be that back when you misplaced your faith for some reason and missed the actual call of God. You wouldn't be the first, many preachers have found they did after many years in the pulpit, most of them finial understood and gave themselves to God.

GC[/quote]

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 Mine is the genuine thing with the real living God, all others are not. God said there are no other gods outside of Me. Being the creator He would know.

GC

God seems a little inconsistent on that point. God demoted the other gods to mortality in Psalms 82 for being unjust.

No, sorry but this Psalm is about men judging men unjustly. In verse 6 God says they will die as any other man would. Some believe this is speaking of angels but, that can't be because angels do not judge man. These men are representatives of God, because by His power they are in positions of authority over other men. Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6 in John 10: 34-35 and said these were those the word was sent to and man only receives the word of God. These were not other gods demoted, God is and always has been the only God.

GC

[Jesster]

I'm 100% sure that God exists, He has without doubt shown himself to me. What you believe is your choice, I can't nor would I try to make it for you.

Yes, I understand your beliefs there. You just seem to have an agenda here. If you don't actually care about convincing me of anything, I could always move on instead of replying to you anymore. I may be open minded, but I'm not going to waste my time if this isn't going anywhere. Up to you.

That is all Christ said I needed to do, show others why I believe. This is what I do here, I do not beat anyone over the head or shove it down their throats.

Then show me. So far all you are doing is telling me that you believe and not actually presenting any good reason. Like I said before, I am all ears. You just aren't telling me much so far.

I can't do anymore than give my reasons for my belief. What is it you would have me to do, give you proof of God, that's what He does when you come to faith in Him. I keep trying because I care even if you do not believe I do. God has said He will always be there for those who truly want to know Him. Like you have said others in there religions are devout and I agree, but it gets them nowhere because their faith is misplaced, could it be that back when you misplaced your faith for some reason and missed the actual call of God. You wouldn't be the first, many preachers have found they did after many years in the pulpit, most of them finial understood and gave themselves to God.

GC

I don't care who reveals information to me. So far your god hasn't made anything clear to me even though I was a devout Christian for most of my life. That proof you are describing never came to me, so I can't identify with your claims at all. I wanted to know God, but it was a hopeless search. It had nothing to do with churches or pastors, since I studied religion on my own after they couldn't give me anything worthwhile. What would you suggest that I haven't already done? I can assure you that I am not going to waste my entire life looking. I've approached this honestly and earnestly for well over a decade already. To keep this close with the topic of the thread a bit more, I even came directly to religion when I was going through the worst of my suicidal struggles. All I ever got there was threats of damnation, but no actual help. I will thank the doctors who helped me instead.

[Godscreated]

I'm 100% sure that God exists, He has without doubt shown himself to me. What you believe is your choice, I can't nor would I try to make it for you.

Yes, I understand your beliefs there. You just seem to have an agenda here. If you don't actually care about convincing me of anything, I could always move on instead of replying to you anymore. I may be open minded, but I'm not going to waste my time if this isn't going anywhere. Up to you.

Of course I care or I would not be here. My agenda as you put it is to give an account of why I believe in the triune God of creation and salvation, the God of the Bible. I do debate certain issues some times and defend my position on certain things, but I like to try and bring things around to why I believe.

That is all Christ said I needed to do, show others why I believe. This is what I do here, I do not beat anyone over the head or shove it down their throats.

 

Then show me. So far all you are doing is telling me that you believe and not actually presenting any good reason. Like I said before, I am all ears. You just aren't telling me much so far.

I came to faith because I attended church as a young child and heard God's plan, later in my life God through the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for salvation because I realized through His conviction I was a sinner and I accepted His gift of salvation through Christ. Over many years and much searching and asking things of God He gave me the proof, proof that He is who He says He is. Somethings came in physical things others came from answered prayers, a whisper in my ear if you will. Yes, I understood it was God who spoke to me because of the specific answers I was given. Deep devotion to God is why He answered, not just because some man wanting to hear something from Him to satisfy curiosity.

I can't do anymore than give my reasons for my belief. What is it you would have me to do, give you proof of God, that's what He does when you come to faith in Him. I keep trying because I care even if you do not believe I do. God has said He will always be there for those who truly want to know Him. Like you have said others in there religions are devout and I agree, but it gets them nowhere because their faith is misplaced, could it be that back when you misplaced your faith for some reason and missed the actual call of God. You wouldn't be the first, many preachers have found they did after many years in the pulpit, most of them finial understood and gave themselves to God.

GC

I don't care who reveals information to me. So far your god hasn't made anything clear to me even though I was a devout Christian for most of my life. That proof you are describing never came to me, so I can't identify with your claims at all.  I wanted to know God, but it was a hopeless search. It had nothing to do with churches or pastors, since I studied religion on my own after they couldn't give me anything worthwhile. What would you suggest that I haven't already done? I can assure you that I am not going to waste my entire life looking. I've approached this honestly and earnestly for well over a decade already. To keep this close with the topic of the thread a bit more, I even came directly to religion when I was going through the worst of my suicidal struggles. All I ever got there was threats of damnation, but no actual help. I will thank the doctors who helped me instead.

 Explain to me what you believe it was that made you a devout Christian, I ask this because I do not believe I would ever refer to myself that way, I've to far to go in my relationship. I'm not sure what you mean by worthwhile, it's hard for me to understand why a pastor or others in the church couldn't answer your questions. This I can assure you it's extremely hard to do Bible study without those who can teach, God places them there for us. I can study much more on my own now because of the help those God placed in my path to help and I hope that I can be that for you. To suggest what you need to do that you "already" haven't done requires me to know what you did more specifically. Let me suggest this because I know it to be true from my own experiences, the deeper meanings of scripture is revealed only by the Holy Spirit. You can ask me any questions and I'll do my best to answer them as long as they do not get into things so personal to me I want answer. Questions about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, questions about subjects and/or verses in the Bible, even questions about life with God or life in general. I promise there will be no made up answers, that would be cheating you and disregarding my relationship with God and neither of those would be satisfactory to me. We can keep discussions private even to the point of using e-mail if you want. It's shameful that people would treat you the way you described, I hope they misunderstood you, but then there are those who do not understand the teachings of scripture, unfortunately for you and others. They just do not understand the destruction they do. I will tell you this forgiving them is a great place to start, and believe me I know how hard that can be. 

GC

[Jesster]

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Yes, I understand your beliefs there. You just seem to have an agenda here. If you don't actually care about convincing me of anything, I could always move on instead of replying to you anymore. I may be open minded, but I'm not going to waste my time if this isn't going anywhere. Up to you.

Of course I care or I would not be here. My agenda as you put it is to give an account of why I believe in the triune God of creation and salvation, the God of the Bible. I do debate certain issues some times and defend my position on certain things, but I like to try and bring things around to why I believe.

That is all Christ said I needed to do, show others why I believe. This is what I do here, I do not beat anyone over the head or shove it down their throats.

 

Then show me. So far all you are doing is telling me that you believe and not actually presenting any good reason. Like I said before, I am all ears. You just aren't telling me much so far.

I came to faith because I attended church as a young child and heard God's plan, later in my life God through the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for salvation because I realized through His conviction I was a sinner and I accepted His gift of salvation through Christ. Over many years and much searching and asking things of God He gave me the proof, proof that He is who He says He is. Somethings came in physical things others came from answered prayers, a whisper in my ear if you will. Yes, I understood it was God who spoke to me because of the specific answers I was given. Deep devotion to God is why He answered, not just because some man wanting to hear something from Him to satisfy curiosity.

I can't do anymore than give my reasons for my belief. What is it you would have me to do, give you proof of God, that's what He does when you come to faith in Him. I keep trying because I care even if you do not believe I do. God has said He will always be there for those who truly want to know Him. Like you have said others in there religions are devout and I agree, but it gets them nowhere because their faith is misplaced, could it be that back when you misplaced your faith for some reason and missed the actual call of God. You wouldn't be the first, many preachers have found they did after many years in the pulpit, most of them finial understood and gave themselves to God.

GC

I don't care who reveals information to me. So far your god hasn't made anything clear to me even though I was a devout Christian for most of my life. That proof you are describing never came to me, so I can't identify with your claims at all.  I wanted to know God, but it was a hopeless search. It had nothing to do with churches or pastors, since I studied religion on my own after they couldn't give me anything worthwhile. What would you suggest that I haven't already done? I can assure you that I am not going to waste my entire life looking. I've approached this honestly and earnestly for well over a decade already. To keep this close with the topic of the thread a bit more, I even came directly to religion when I was going through the worst of my suicidal struggles. All I ever got there was threats of damnation, but no actual help. I will thank the doctors who helped me instead.

 Explain to me what you believe it was that made you a devout Christian, I ask this because I do not believe I would ever refer to myself that way, I've to far to go in my relationship. I'm not sure what you mean by worthwhile, it's hard for me to understand why a pastor or others in the church couldn't answer your questions. This I can assure you it's extremely hard to do Bible study without those who can teach, God places them there for us. I can study much more on my own now because of the help those God placed in my path to help and I hope that I can be that for you. To suggest what you need to do that you "already" haven't done requires me to know what you did more specifically. Let me suggest this because I know it to be true from my own experiences, the deeper meanings of scripture is revealed only by the Holy Spirit. You can ask me any questions and I'll do my best to answer them as long as they do not get into things so personal to me I want answer. Questions about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, questions about subjects and/or verses in the Bible, even questions about life with God or life in general. I promise there will be no made up answers, that would be cheating you and disregarding my relationship with God and neither of those would be satisfactory to me. We can keep discussions private even to the point of using e-mail if you want. It's shameful that people would treat you the way you described, I hope they misunderstood you, but then there are those who do not understand the teachings of scripture, unfortunately for you and others. They just do not understand the destruction they do. I will tell you this forgiving them is a great place to start, and believe me I know how hard that can be. 

GC

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In all of this, you never once told me what I should do, nor did you provide a path toward any form of truth. I'll listen, but only if you give me something of substance.