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October 17, 2017 at 10:49 am (This post was last modified: October 17, 2017 at 10:50 am by Mystic.)
(October 17, 2017 at 10:44 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 17, 2017 at 10:36 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Responses:
1. The probability way of the past Quran shows the family that inherits the divine leadership of Mohammad would most likely face oppression.
2. It is a very limited amount of people, few is an understatement, it is limited always to Twelve Successors. Always. Lest it does seem like a monarchy or giving power to his offspring over others.
3. God negating power all but from Twelve Successors is a wise way in the people of Moses, because, we see if they had any chance, it would be to sticking to the chosen leaders as opposed to power hungry people like the clergy you guys all hate so much (and rightly so).
4. The wisdom of the Twelve in its last mention emphasizes on the corruption of priests and rabbis and scholars of religion in general, warning believers, how they make people go to extreme regarding chosen ones only as a means of corrupt control and how they hoard people's money and don't spend in God's way. One of the wisdom of putting leadership in a chosen family and offspring, is to negate it from every power hungry person not worthy of leadership.
5. Leadership in religion is God's role, he guides and sufficient as a guide and helper, so necessarily, he will make it harder for humans to claim religious leadership whether they claim they are Prophets or in contact with Angels or hidden beings (Jinn gods) or claim to be successors, that is why he has emphasized a lot on look for proofs...and there is various proofs...limiting the number to twelve, and emphasizing on the number of successors and being consistent with it through all places and times, is of the wisdoms Quran emphasizes on though people may try to do away with the wisdom. He knows our enemies won't cease to try to deceive humans. So this makes it easy to distinguish the truth from falsehood.
6. Messengerhood of Mohammad is making people already claiming he did to heighten his name, so God told him to say, yes he does seek a reward, but it is not towards remembering him and glorifying him, but loving his family instead, so while the remembrance of Mohammad is heightened, it was all so people love the Twelve Successors and his holy daughter, and that was in Quran through so much emphasis - was for our own sake. It's for our own benefit. And the benefit is something the whole Quran elaborates on.
So... you're saying it's more like the military than the monarchy?
God is known through his name, his beautiful Names are what succeed the Name of God, and the beautiful names of God associated with each other in the mission to make humans glorify God much and remember him much are a "family". God out of his wisdom (which I showed reasons why) also makes them physically related and branches linking back to a root, lest people claim what they want of this leadership as it is already bad enough people disbelieving it and giving authority to the oppressive idol and sorcery on the hearts.
And if you obey the Captains who are God's beautiful names, you obey God. There are no other means to God but through his door he appoints.
All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
(October 17, 2017 at 10:44 am)pocaracas Wrote: So... you're saying it's more like the military than the monarchy?
God is known through his name, his beautiful Names are what succeed the Name of God, and the beautiful names of God associated with each other in the mission to make humans glorify God much and remember him much are a "family". God out of his wisdom (which I showed reasons why) also makes them physically related and branches linking back to a root, lest people claim what they want of this leadership as it is already bad enough people disbelieving it and giving authority to the oppressive idol and sorcery on the hearts.
And if you obey the Captains who are God's beautiful names, you obey God. There are no other means to God but through his door he appoints.
All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
But trace it back to the original "appointed leader".
How was that person appointed leader?
How do we know that?
(October 17, 2017 at 10:49 am)MysticKnight Wrote: All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
Then get your appointed leader in here to explain it to us and stop predictably failing?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 17, 2017 at 10:49 am)MysticKnight Wrote: All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
Then get your appointed leader in here to explain it to us and stop predictably failing?
"All holy books with be misinterpreted". Definitely.
And this is ultimate proof that the claimed "supernatural" authors of those holy books -- creatures who are usually claimed to be the creator of everything that is, billions upon billions of galaxies -- have less ability to communicate their wishes and desires than your average 8-year-old-child. Pathetic. No other argument is needed. Until this so-called "god" can actually make itself clearly understood to all humans, without misinterpretation, it is not worthy of a second's attention, much less worship.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
October 17, 2017 at 11:01 am (This post was last modified: October 17, 2017 at 11:06 am by Mystic.)
(October 17, 2017 at 10:51 am)pocaracas Wrote:
(October 17, 2017 at 10:49 am)MysticKnight Wrote: God is known through his name, his beautiful Names are what succeed the Name of God, and the beautiful names of God associated with each other in the mission to make humans glorify God much and remember him much are a "family". God out of his wisdom (which I showed reasons why) also makes them physically related and branches linking back to a root, lest people claim what they want of this leadership as it is already bad enough people disbelieving it and giving authority to the oppressive idol and sorcery on the hearts.
And if you obey the Captains who are God's beautiful names, you obey God. There are no other means to God but through his door he appoints.
All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
But trace it back to the original "appointed leader".
How was that person appointed leader?
How do we know that?
Good questions. Yet AtlasS33 and I agree on Mohammad so this not what we are debating.
But it all comes to down to recognizing God. If you recognize God, you will recognize something proves him. The question is what is that thing. To me the best book in guidance that clarifies his proof and the path to him, and hence is best in guidance, is ultimately from God.
So how do you recognize God or what is best in guidance or what is his proof. No easy answer.
Quran has a Surah called "the manifest proof". It says during that time it was a Messenger who recites them God's signs....
What does rest of Quran say about proof. It is one of the most repeated things in Quran.
How the hell - is a man or a Messenger a proof for God? Right?
This is what you are thinking, and this is exactly why Mohammad had a constriction on his heart.
Beyond the Unseen realms of Angels he stood, yet on earth he walked, and his light extended to all human beings, what does this all mean?
Its no easy answer. The truth of Quran is strange so strange most Muslims can't digest it despite it being clear and repeated and Surahs and Surahs on themes and themes regarding this.
All I ask you is to consider, what truly is goodness but following guidance, and what guidance can be true but that leads somewhere, and where can that guidance come from and lead but that which is perfect vision and the perfect judge - the source of all goodness, greatness, and beauty.
The guidance of God is the guidance to me proves God, but not only that proves, divine books, but not only that, Messengers coupled with them, not only that, but a time to unite humanity on a revelation from, there would be Successors to a Messenger who are divinely appointed leaders but not Messengers.
"guidance from God, it is the guidance" has the moral argument in it that proves God but also furthermore proves religion, and furthermore proves God guiding to that religion with precision, which proves even he would prove a number and clarification to the successors.
(October 17, 2017 at 11:00 am)drfuzzy Wrote:
(October 17, 2017 at 10:55 am)Khemikal Wrote: Then get your appointed leader in here to explain it to us and stop predictably failing?
"All holy books with be misinterpreted". Definitely.
And this is ultimate proof that the claimed "supernatural" authors of those holy books -- creatures who are usually claimed to be the creator of everything that is, billions upon billions of galaxies -- have less ability to communicate their wishes and desires than your average 8-year-old-child. Pathetic. No other argument is needed. Until this so-called "god" can actually make itself clearly understood to all humans, without misinterpretation, it is not worthy of a second's attention, much less worship.
There are levels of understanding and knowledge. So a book that wishes humans to traverse as many steps as they are capable of, is not going to be like your average book. It needs interpreters and guides.
(October 17, 2017 at 10:51 am)pocaracas Wrote: But trace it back to the original "appointed leader".
How was that person appointed leader?
How do we know that?
Good questions. Yet AtlasS33 and I agree on Mohammad so this not what we are debating.
But it all comes to down to recognizing God. If you recognize God, you will recognize something proves him. The question is what is that thing. To me the best book in guidance that clarifies his proof and the path to him, and hence is best in guidance, is ultimately from God.
So how do you recognize God or what is best in guidance or what is his proof. No easy answer.
Quran has a Surah called "the manifest proof". It says during that time it was a Messenger who recites them God's signs....
What does rest of Quran say about proof. It is one of the most repeated things in Quran.
How the hell - is a man or a Messenger a proof for God? Right?
This is what you are thinking, and this is exactly why Mohammad had a constriction on his heart.
Beyond the Unseen realms of Angels he stood, yet on earth he walked, and his light extended to all human beings, what does this all mean?
Its no easy answer. The truth of Quran is strange so strange most Muslims can't digest it despite it being clear and repeated and Surahs and Surahs on themes and themes regarding this.
All I ask you is to consider, what truly is goodness but following guidance, and what guidance can be true but that leads somewhere, and where can that guidance come from and lead but that which is perfect vision and the perfect judge - the source of all goodness, greatness, and beauty.
The guidance of God is the guidance to me proves God, but not only that proves, divine books, but not only that, Messengers coupled with them, not only that, but a time to unite humanity on a revelation from, there would be Successors to a Messenger who are divinely appointed leaders but not Messengers.
"guidance from God, it is the guidance" has the moral argument in it that proves God but also furthermore proves religion, and furthermore proves God guiding to that religion with precision, which proves even he would prove a number and clarification to the successors.
(October 17, 2017 at 11:00 am)drfuzzy Wrote: "All holy books with be misinterpreted". Definitely.
And this is ultimate proof that the claimed "supernatural" authors of those holy books -- creatures who are usually claimed to be the creator of everything that is, billions upon billions of galaxies -- have less ability to communicate their wishes and desires than your average 8-year-old-child. Pathetic. No other argument is needed. Until this so-called "god" can actually make itself clearly understood to all humans, without misinterpretation, it is not worthy of a second's attention, much less worship.
There are levels of understanding and knowledge. So a book that wishes humans to traverse as many steps as they are capable of, is not going to be like your average book. It needs interpreters and guides.
All human "messengers of god" are delusional con artists. If god was insane and incompetent enough to need a human to speak for it, it would give that human some outward proof. Even Jesus supposedly claimed to send out his apostles with the ability to speak in tongues and heal illnesses. Supposedly. Bring me a snake-oil salesman preechur who can fly, that might at least be interesting. All preachers, priests, monks, imams, rabbis, pastors, etc. are delusional charlatans.
Levels of understanding and knowledge. Bullcrap. A three-year-old child can effectively communicate it's needs. Yet your "creator of the universe" is incapable of even that level of communication. And until it does, none of us should waste our time paying it any attention.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
October 17, 2017 at 1:32 pm (This post was last modified: October 17, 2017 at 1:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 17, 2017 at 11:01 am)MysticKnight Wrote: There are levels of understanding and knowledge. So a book that wishes humans to traverse as many steps as they are capable of, is not going to be like your average book. It needs interpreters and guides.
Some book, some god. Lowly human worm that I am, I'm capable of communicating a message without a barrage of loons to "interpret" it. This is somehow beyond the ability of a god.
Go get one of those guides, Mystic. Bring them here. If that's a requirement then I can't fathom why you would waste your time confusing the message. If some person fails to recognize the glorious truth, it will be your involvement that creates this problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
The Horadrim, in their pride, fell for the trap layed by the Three. They vanquished the demons one by one, trapping in the soulstones given by the Archaengel Tyrael, a fool itself. The three layed waste for all Sanctuary, save for a group of brave heroes,....
October 17, 2017 at 4:38 pm (This post was last modified: October 17, 2017 at 4:38 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 15, 2017 at 8:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(October 15, 2017 at 8:09 pm)Hammy Wrote: The one that finally recognizes that it's all bullshit.
Ah there came a time where I thought so too. But with reflecting, there is a great majestic recitation in there that is beyond human capabilities, and in fact, beyond capabilities except for one who knows exactly how to open infinite knowledge with very limited space in words, is it is no doubt from God, Lord of the worlds.
And then hopefully there will also come the time when you realize you were right to doubt the Koran because all the meaning you find in it isn't really there. And life itself either is or isn't enough without God. And whether you can cope with reality or not is a different question to "What is reality?"
October 17, 2017 at 4:56 pm (This post was last modified: October 17, 2017 at 5:47 pm by WinterHold.)
Quote:MysticKnight My approach is I use hadiths to gain insight into Quran, and whatever I see in Quran, I believe and what I don't see, I don't believe but neither deny, and what I know Quran rejects I reject.
First of all; this is not "your" approach. This is a 1400 years old approach, to make Quranic text say what it doesn't really say. Almost all Muslims scholars (both Sunni and Shiite) use this way.
"Making a fish out of a bird"; in other words; troll. That's what I wrote in my post to you; and this is what you bellydanced around like a proper gymnast.
Quote:The thing Moses was also according to Quran revealed a book that everything pertaining to guidance of humanity explained, and what a guidance and leader to humanity, but still, right away, he prayed and realized what peop....
I'm not talking about Moses; troll, I asked you a question:
Quote:Quote: AtlasS33 said:
Answer any of these. And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.
AtlasS33 said:
I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-
Answer; or bug off !
Quote:Responses:
1. The probability way of the past Quran shows the family that inherits the divine leadership of Mohammad would most likely face oppression.
2. It is a very limited amount of people, few is an understatement, it is limited always to Twelve Successors. Always. Lest it does seem like a monarchy or giving power to his offspring over others.
3. God negating power all but from Twelve Successors is a wise way in the people of Moses, because, we see if they had any chance, it would be to sticking to the chosen leaders as opposed to power hungry people like the clergy you guys all hate so much (and rightly so).
4. The wisdom of the Twelve in its last mention emphasizes on the corruption of priests and rabbis and scholars of religion in general, warning believers, how they make people go to extreme regarding chosen ones only as a means of corrupt control and how they hoard people's money and don't spend in God's way. One of the wisdom of putting leadership in a chosen family and offspring, is to negate it from every power hungry person not worthy of leadership.
5. Leadership in religion is God's role, he guides and sufficient as a guide and helper, so necessarily, he will make it harder for humans to claim religious leadership whether they claim they are Prophets or in contact with Angels or hidden beings (Jinn gods) or claim to be successors, that is why he has emphasized a lot on look for proofs...and there is various proofs...limiting the number to twelve, and emphasizing on the number of successors and being consistent with it through all places and times, is of the wisdoms Quran emphasizes on though people may try to do away with the wisdom. He knows our enemies won't cease to try to deceive humans. So this makes it easy to distinguish the truth from falsehood.
6. Messengerhood of Mohammad is making people already claiming he did to heighten his name, so God told him to say, yes he does seek a reward, but it is not towards remembering him and glorifying him, but loving his family instead, so while the remembrance of Mohammad is heightened, it was all so people love the Twelve Successors and his holy daughter, and that was in Quran through so much emphasis - was for
That's what I thought; troll !
Quote: God is known through his name, his beautiful Names are what succeed the Name of God, and the beautiful names of God associated with each other in the mission to make humans glorify God much and remember him much are a "family". God out of his wisdom (which I showed reasons why) also makes them physically related and branches linking back to a root, lest people claim what they want of this leadership as it is already bad enough people disbelieving it and giving authority to the oppressive idol and sorcery on the hearts.
And if you obey the Captains who are God's beautiful names, you obey God. There are no other means to God but through his door he appoints.
All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
Whoever told you this, just ordered you to lie down on your stomach and surrender your fate.
Quote:All holy books will be misinterpreted unless we go to it to understand it and we will err on our own without help from God's appointed leaders, and his appointed leaders' interpretations are needed to support our case!
So, which interpretation should I listen to ?
The interpretation of the zombie clan ? or the interpretation of zombie Jesus and his followers? or the interpretation of your likes? or the interpretation of the person teaching you the propaganda you spit here?
I thought that the Quran said:
Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
( 178 ) Whoever Allah guides - he is the [rightly] guided; and whoever He sends astray - it is those who are the losers.
and
Quote:Sura 64, The Quran:
( 11 ) No disaster strikes except by permission of Allah. And whoever believes in Allah - He will guide his heart. And Allah is Knowing of all things.
? Guidance; according to the Quran; lies with God?
So; where did the zombie imams come from?
Oh wait..they came from the midst of struggle between Arabia and Persia, combined with lots of sweat falling from the backs of ears of some men from the Quraish
tribe..
Quote:Good questions. Yet AtlasS33 and I agree on Mohammad so this not what we are debating.
EW !
Don't you ever try to put me with you on the same side; troll ! not even for one view.
My Mohammed is different from yours. I told you: you believe in a very different prophet; very different religion; very different life codes. Just keep your disgusting missionary work away from me; and we're cool.
Speak as you like, believe what you like; you have your religion I have mine. But don't you dare to say that me and you agree on the same "religious assets".
Quote:Beyond the Unseen realms of Angels he stood, yet on earth he walked, and his light extended to all human beings, what does this all mean?
I heard this mythical stuff in video games, movies and greek mythology. With lots of weird Biblical sparks in the mind.. Go easy on yourself. You're not a Catholic.The pope is not your friend; also. Or did you actually believed his "Muslim immigrant foot washing"??
Here:
Quote: Its no easy answer. The truth of Quran is strange so strange most Muslims can't digest it despite it being clear and repeated and Surahs and Surahs on themes and themes regarding this.
It becomes very strange when we apply your method; i.e using the Hadith to interpret it.
Read it raw; and it will differ by a lot.
Quote:All I ask you is to consider, what truly is goodness but following guidance, and what guidance can be true but that leads somewhere, and where can that guidance come from and lead but that which is perfect vision and the perfect judge - the source of all goodness, greatness, and beauty.
All I ask in return; is you answering my question:
Quote:Quote: AtlasS33 said:
Answer any of these. And no gymnastics or textual walls ! no implicit answers!
Just give me one verse, across the 600 pages of the Quran that mentions any of the 5 questions' answers.
AtlasS33 said:
I'll give you many options; all prove your religion if you answer them:
1- A verse mentioning "Ali" by the name.
2-A verse mentioning "Hasaen" by the name.
3-A verse mentioning "Hussain" by the name.
4-A verse mentioning the 12 divine imams that we must follow
5-A verse mentioning the last imam that you and your cult believe will rule the universe or whatever -Imam Mahdy-
