Views beyond Atheism

[Edwardo Piet]

What a (can I say it? I think I can - he deserves it anyway) - what a cunt (Stalin that is).

[fr0d0]

What about thinking of faith as a kind of identity. I don't ever go around even telling people my beliefs. It may effect my choices of what I do and think. Like someone who is confident of who they are, I think how I live my life is right, and I'd like it if others felt the same just because that would make my community larger.

I don't see what's wrong with identity, and I don't think anyone should force an identity on me that I don't agree with. I guess it should be right for different identities to co-exist. Separation is never right IMO.

[Edwardo Piet]

If you want to express your beliefs I think that's fine. Freedom of speech; so long as people haven't told you to STFU and are alright with it - so long as you don't 'force it down their throat'.

Although I don't think I'd like it if everyone just 'kept quiet'. I find beliefs very interesting and the truth important.

I find it fascinating that so many people are comfortable believing things on faith. Believing entirely without evidence (NE included fr0d0) - it's the essence of bullshit.

EvF

[fr0d0]

Well I'm saying it's like any other type of identity possibly. You'd maybe be correct to have some pride in your identity, and there'd be nothing wrong with that. Your cultural practices may seem strange to people of other cultural experience but that doesn't make you wrong or them right, or the other way around.

I don't have to call your opinion bullshit, and you don't have to call my opinion bullshit. I see flaws in your opinions and will point those out. Why should you be conversant with my beliefs? You don't have to be. But equally you need to respect, I think, that I hold my opinion and could have a point if not the whole point and that you could be wrong about me.

I respect that you could be right, and am happy for you to have the freedom to express your opinion whether or not I agree with it or find it illogical. It's only when you start treading on my freedom that I squeal. People live with oppression. Sometimes there is no choice. Gene Roddenberry's utopian vision is sounding very enticing right now LOL

[Edwardo Piet]

I think I respect you fr0d0, but not your 'beliefs'.

I will respect people, but not their 'beliefs'.

The truth is important to me and..I certainly don't believe that one set of beliefs is no more right than the other...

Some beliefs have evidence to back them, some don't. Faith isn't remotely on even footing with evidence. Evidence has substance, it's evidence. Faith doesn't have substance (because it doesn't have evidence, it's belief without support).

I think I respect you fr0d0 (well I do in some ways anyway - and you seem pretty friendly to me as of late at least ) - I don't respect your beliefs though.



EvF

[Giff]

Well put EvF.

You can respect a person but not nessessarily his/her opnions. But it depends what opinions that person might have. If it racist that person or a aggressive deeply religious fundamentalist do I not respect that person or his/hers opinion.

It's hard thing since on persons opnion can be storngly accociated with them. So if you don't respect or like that persons opnions is it a strongpossibility that you won't like or respect that person.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah of course some PEOPLE don't deserve respect either. But that differs from person to person. Some atheists I respect, some I don't. Some theists I respect (but not because of their theism, for an unrelated reason or reasons), some I don't.

I don't respect the religious BELIEFS of ANY religious person though. Because I think they're all ridiculous by definition. And I respect the non-belief of all atheists; because I think it's cool to meet someone else who doesn't believe in bullshit (or at least, not of the RELIGIOUS kind lol ) - and almost a 'breath of fresh air' to discuss with people who reject that bullshit. I respect doubting bullshit. I DON'T respect believing in bullshit without any evidence (and if there was evidence, it wouldn't be bullshit).

The actual individual however - respecting them or not - differs from person to person. Whether atheist, theist or whatever.

EvF

[fr0d0]

I would agree with not respecting something that's so obviously nasty like racism etc..

I respect your right to your belief EvF. To your opinion. That's what democracy is all about innit. I suppose I agree, sometimes I don't respect your belief. Obviously my rationalisations have led me to different conclusions, and that's where we have discussion, because both of us wants/ needs to justify their own position perhaps.

Maybe it's easier for me because 'not' believing something is the default position, that everyone should already know. So I can respect your belief, and indeed agree with it if it's logical. After all, it's only knowledge in something extra that gets me to my position.

I respect other beliefs within reason. I see and feel the threat when zealots want to impose restrictions on people. Christianity is guilty of that too. Even though it's against what the religion stands for, you can't easily separate the bad stuff. And it's definitely no fun to be on the receiving end.

I've concluded before that it's what you have to get when people create something really positive and good... someone will always come along and do the opposite with it. It's the clever dumb balance.. it must be.

[Edwardo Piet]

I respect your RIGHT to your belief. But I DON'T respect your actual belief.

You have a right to your opinion. But I don't have to respect your belief(s) - I mean, what if I believe they are ridiculous with good reason? i.e.: No evidence.

One way to put is:
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs." - Brad Reddekopp

[Sam]

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Just kinda testing the water here really, what is everyone's view when it comes to active Atheism?

Should religious people be left to their own devices and ignored? Do you think religion is detrimental to society, should we be actively attempting to spread our lack of belief, or does that make us just as pushy as religious preachers? Are religious teachings dangerous?

My personal views on the subject are that religion is dangerous, the teachings are dangerous and the world would be better off without religion. The bad most certainly outweighs the good, and for this reason I'm becoming more and more inclined to doing all I can to encourage people to think for themselves rather than having it done for them.

I ask this because I'm wondering whether it's worth having a board dedicated to it, a discussion of things (no matter how big or small) we can all do to help fight organised religion and spread atheism. (and no, I don't mean in the angry PETA vandal sense)

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Good post Sponge,

I think this is a question a lot of us have probably asked ourselves at one time or another. I don't think we should ignore any paticular demographic group religious or secular, it's only in being aware of the feeling of each individual group we can gauge the potential for problems or unrest etc.. Personally I do find aspects of religion determental to not only society as a whole but also the individuals affected by them, for instnace many religion promote 'faith' as the highest achievement over logical enquiry and free thought that can only serve to dull your perceptions and your mind. While I have no problem with those who wish to practice a personal belief in God or the subtle religions proposed by the like of Bonhoeffer I do take issue with evangelical religion, especially that which prays on people in time of vaulnerability to aid their own ends.

Do you think there is a difference between presenting a belief to someone and indoctrination?

Absolutley, presenting a belief is when you give someone of equal intelectual capacity (i.e. the same age etc...) a chance to consider and evaluate your beliefs and make their own decision. Indoctrination id when you pray on the young or otherwise vaulnerable part of society and breach your beliefs to them as inescapable truths they must either accept or reject and suffer for it in someway.

So, should indoctrination be prevented, or should it be allowed in the name of free speech (no matter how bias)?

Indoctrination should be prevented, just as we would prevent people being indoctrinated into a suicide cult etc... It's a matter of protecting those who cannot protect themselves not obstructing the preachers 'right' to free speech. Do not get me wrong I have no issue with the teaching of religion but in line with my comments above, I hold indoctrination as a seperate issue.

Regards

Sam