Can someone debunk this

[KevinM1]

So what it comes down to is an argument from credulity.

That's all creationists have. "I can't grasp how this came about naturally, so it must not have happened that way." Everything else is merely to obfuscate that they're operating from a fallacious starting point.

[Mystic]

That is wrong. We were having a discussion on a paradox of consciousness and non-consciousness stepping over to the other at some level, at some stage. It had to do precisely with understanding the vast difference between the two states, direction needed, and stepping ground between the two.

The paradox is there is such a huge difference between the two states, at whatever level. While senses like eyes and what not, you can argue started from this to that, and got more complex and what not, because there is bunch of similar things to eye sight (other senses that lead to other senses), there is nothing similar of non-consciousness state with a concsiousness state. A mutation or a few random mutations will not make it step from that step to that step. Something is either conscious or not. Whatever degree even the lowest sense of perception of the ghost in the machine would be so vastly different then no ghost in the machine.

Now everyone will just get into definitions and define this and that.

Ignoring and sidetracking the paradox I am sure.

There are other things aside from conscious that are impossible by similar logic, but I won't get into those.

And it has nothing to do lack of knowledge but rather our knowledge that it is binary, either there is a ghost in the machine or not.

Thus evolution is irrational as taught by Atheist naturalism perspective.

[I_am_not_mafia]

The paradox is there is such a huge difference between the two states, at whatever level. While senses like eyes and what not, you can argue started from this to that, and got more complex and what not, because there is bunch of similar things to eye sight (other senses that lead to other senses), there is nothing similar of non-consciousness state with a concsiousness state. A mutation or a few random mutations will not make it step from that step to that step.   Something is either conscious or not.   Whatever degree even the lowest sense of perception of the ghost in the machine would be so vastly different then no ghost in the machine.

Now everyone will just get into definitions and define this and that.

Well it is important if you are going to argue about what is conscious and what is not. It is not a binary condition. Some people of more conscious of why they act than others. Animals and birds are conscious of what they are doing. What about fish? Or insects? Or bacteria? Or what about a fully formed adult compared to a fertilised egg? When does that become conscious? Or when you are recovering from general anesthetic. At one point you are unconscious and as neurons slowly became active again your brain becomes conscious. How do we recognise the point where something is conscious or not conscious?

But if you're just imagining yourself sitting there aware of your self and comparing that to a static brick wall, then you're going to think that the two are completely different.  But you're not comparing like for like. A brick wall will never develop to be conscious ever. whereas a fertilised egg will.

And once you do start to define it then you will have to find better definitions for the terms you use to define it. So we could define consciousness as being aware of yourself but then what does being aware mean?

The more you start to define your terms into smaller more precise definitions the more you realise that consciousness and non-consciousness do merge into one another at some point.

[Mystic]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible. This is again, due to the fact it has to be a few mutations that turns on the ghost in the machine. You provided an example of numerous changes happening through time at multilayer to turn on the on switch.

Yes if evolution was able to do changes that quickly, and we can have millions of good mutations at the same time that lead to awesome design, then it work. It doesn't work like that, and ironically,  Darwin thought it was somewhat like this due to people assuming life was really simple back then and biology wasn't that complex and didn't understand changes don't just happen so quickly.

[KevinM1]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible.

Got any proof to back that up, or just Islamic word salad?

[Mystic]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible.

Got any proof to back that up, or just Islamic word salad?

Which phrase do you dispute?

[I_am_not_mafia]

You do realise don't you MysticKnight that the mutations happen to the DNA which are a recipe developing for a complex system such as a brain. The brain itself does not mutate throughout the course of a lifetime.

I'd ask for justification of your beliefs but it doesn't sound like you really know what is supposed to happen inside your head and when you are conceived.

[Abaddon_ire]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible. This is again, due to the fact it has to be a few mutations that turns on the ghost in the machine. You provided an example of numerous changes happening through time at multilayer to turn on the on switch.

Yes if evolution was able to do changes that quickly, and we can have millions of good mutations at the same time that lead to awesome design, then it work. It doesn't work like that, and ironically,  Darwin thought it was somewhat like this due to people assuming life was really simple back then and biology wasn't that complex and didn't understand changes don't just happen so quickly.

A single mutation can cause cancer and death. A transition from consciousness to unconsciousness.

A fertilised zygote is effectively a dedicated mutation machine. From a single cell it must create every other type of cell in the human body ex nihilo, including the brain.

[Mystic]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible.

Got any proof to back that up, or just Islamic word salad?

Ok,  concsiousness and non-concsiouness are binary. On and off.  Either a ghost or not.

When an egg is growing to a baby, there is many steps, true.

Yet it is happenning with multilayer of many changes at the same time that are acting according to gene intructions.

Now evolution, do things change like pokemon? No. Gradual small mutations over time right? 

Yet think about it. The has to be so many of these small mutations, and yet at one point it has to click, no-ghost to ghost.

This is vastly so different that like we grow from egg to baby it would require numerous mutations at the same time, all by design....both which evolution doesn't offer in naturalistic paradigm.

Thus design is proven.

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You do realise don't you MysticKnight that the mutations happen to the DNA which are a recipe developing for a complex system such as a brain. The brain itself does not mutate throughout the course of a lifetime.

I'd ask for justification of your beliefs but it doesn't sound like you really know what is supposed to happen inside your head and when you are conceived.

I hope you re-read what I wrote and my last post.

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When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically. There is many layers of change happening at the same time simultaneously.

At one point consciousness will click due to those changes that are multilayer and numerous and not random and chaotic.

I am saying with the evolution paradigm from naturalistic perspective this is not possible. This is again, due to the fact it has to be a few mutations that turns on the ghost in the machine. You provided an example of numerous changes happening through time at multilayer to turn on the on switch.

Yes if evolution was able to do changes that quickly, and we can have millions of good mutations at the same time that lead to awesome design, then it work. It doesn't work like that, and ironically,  Darwin thought it was somewhat like this due to people assuming life was really simple back then and biology wasn't that complex and didn't understand changes don't just happen so quickly.

A single mutation can cause cancer and death. A transition from consciousness to unconsciousness.

A fertilised zygote is effectively a dedicated mutation machine. From a single cell it must create every other type of cell in the human body ex nihilo, including the brain.

I am trying to understand the relevance?

[I_am_not_mafia]

When we grow from an egg to a human, there are many changes at many levels in time, and none of it is random at that point or chaotic.  I am saying a few mutations cannot lead from one state to another. The paradigm is the evolution paradigm of small changes over time with random mutations and natural selection.

When we grow from an egg, there is direction at each stage according to instructions that recorded biologically.

Think of it like me giving you a recipe for a nice cake. It is a very complicated recipe and the order and timing are very important.

The recipe for me makes a very tasty cake, but when I read it out to you, you wrote some of timings down wrongly. You then use the recipe you have and get a different cake.

No mutation happens to your cake once you start making it.

The instructions (recipe) are used for the fertilised egg (cake mix) to develop over time to be a fully conscious human (cake). No one is saying that consciousness comes from mutations in reading the DNA.

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Ok,  concsiousness and non-concsiouness are binary. On and off.  Either a ghost or not.

Yep. I thought this was what you assumed and which is why I explained in my first post to you that consciousness is not a binary condition.

For example, as I said your brain does not immediately switch on from unconscious to conscious after general anesthetic. Some animals and even some humans are more conscious of why they act the way they do than others.