Charles Manson, dead at age 83

[GrandizerII]

Do they really understand that what they were doing was wrong? If a person has no conscience, what will make them intuit that this and that is wrong?

---

The Mandela Effect strikes again.

From what I've read Charles Manson was more psychotic than psychopathic. The two are very different. Charles Manson's murders were incredibly immoral, but from what I have read he was acutely deluded in such a way that he genuinely believed that what he was doing was moral. A true psychopath doesn't give a shit about morality and would only pretend to care about morality so they can more easily manipulate people for their own selfish ends. Psychopaths know they're 'evil' and sadistic but they don't give a shit, and Charles Manson whilst being a disgusting murderer... supposedly really genuinely thought he was doing good.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Charles Manson being psychopathic. I'm just making general points here.

But anyway, a psychopath nevertheless has a mental deficiency in moral reasoning as they don't really see what's wrong about the things that most people intuitively understand to be wrong.

[Cyberman]

Apparently, he was formally diagnosed with Schizophrenia, Paranoid Delusional Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and likely others.

[paulpablo]

I've always thought of Charles Manson as being the small scale American version of Hitler.

Both were small guys with powerful personalities.  I think with both of them their later life delusions and ideas were brought on by amphetamine use, plus LSD with Manson.  They both had either a purely learned understanding of how to manipulate people but some of that could have been intuitive.  

I really doubt Manson was schizophrenic, at least at the time of him having his own cult.  I think maybe a person with a drug fueled psychosis can be persuasive to attract/maintain a group following, but not a schizophrenic.  That's just in my humble opinion.

[Edwardo Piet]

From what I've read Charles Manson was more psychotic than psychopathic. The two are very different. Charles Manson's murders were incredibly immoral, but from what I have read he was acutely deluded in such a way that he genuinely believed that what he was doing was moral. A true psychopath doesn't give a shit about morality and would only pretend to care about morality so they can more easily manipulate people for their own selfish ends. Psychopaths know they're 'evil' and sadistic but they don't give a shit, and Charles Manson whilst being a disgusting murderer... supposedly really genuinely thought he was doing good.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Charles Manson being psychopathic. I'm just making general points here.

But anyway, a psychopath nevertheless has a mental deficiency in moral reasoning as they don't really see what's wrong about the things that most people intuitively understand to be wrong.

I disagree because I don't think having no consicence means you don't understand something is wrong. It means that you don't feel that something is wrong. Psychopaths can know that hurting people is bad but they don't care. You seem to be making the argument that Socrates made that no one knowingly does evil. I disagree with that strongly because there are many evil things that I could do that are evil. I'm not incapable of doing those things just because I know they are evil. Just because I don't do those things doesn't mean I can't.

There's even been more recent scientific evidence that it may be the case that it's untrue that psychopaths don't have empathy, and in fact it looks like they have some sort of "empathy switch" where they can turn their empathy on and off as they please. Which would explain why they can often come across as empathetic so easily. They have no conscience, or no compassion, but not necessarily no empathy and they can make themselves feel what others are feeling to blend in, and then they can switch it back off again, murder someone for fun, bury the body and just continue with their life as if nothing happened, without a care in the world.

So, it's not that they're incapable of recognizing that hurting people is bad and it's bad for them to hurt people. And in fact it's not even that they're necessarily incapable of stepping into the position of those who think hurting people is bad and to know what it feels like to feel the hurt of someone else. It's more that a normal person can't help but feel compassion, they don't have a choice, they care too much, their conscience overpowers them, they're trapped by it, and for a 'normal' person it's not like empathy is just some other kind of tool in their toolbox to get what they want.

It's almost like they feel things on such a shallow level that morality doesn't motivate them, it's not that they don't understand or feel them at all. Psychopaths are usually far too sane, rational and high functioning to not understand that something is wrong, unlike low-functioning sociopaths or those who suffer from "anti social personality disorder".

There has also been recent scientific evidence that psychopaths can feel fear and anxiety, but they have trouble sensing danger. Or, they can sense it but they don't care about it enough for their brain to give many signals that they sense it. Or IOW, their own pleasure is more important, regardless of who gets hurt. But supposedly many years ago scientists thought they had found less fear signals in a psychopaths brain than normal, but they have more recently thought that it was probably danger signals not fear signals and psychopaths do feel fear they just go ahead and do stuff anyway. Think of courage but not in an honorable way. They'll ignore their fear to pursue sadistic stimulation and hurt people regardless of how wrong it is and if they feel any guilt at all it will be at such a low level that they're not even aware of it. Or it's so watered down and shallow that it's merely a tool. But that's not to say they can't switch it on and off. Maybe they are completely aware of that and they can use that 'empathy switch' consciously, maybe not, maybe it's just a coping mechanism for surviving in a world where most people think other people's well-being is important. Maybe they're not aware of it at all. Maybe some are aware and some are not, maybe some start off unaware and become aware. Who knows? (Them? The scientists? I guess the psychopaths themselves would be the only ones who knew from a first person perspective. And evidence and knowledge is not the same, as is very clear from scientists changing their mind about what the brain differences between psychopaths and 'normal people' actually mean).

That's the scientific evidence. I also have my own personal opinion that psychopaths feel like everyone else is a psychopath because they have no concept of anyone being any other way besides 100% selfish and it feels to them like everyone else is "faking it"? Just a thought.

[GrandizerII]

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Charles Manson being psychopathic. I'm just making general points here.

But anyway, a psychopath nevertheless has a mental deficiency in moral reasoning as they don't really see what's wrong about the things that most people intuitively understand to be wrong.

I disagree because I don't think having no consicence means you don't understand something is wrong. It means that you don't feel that something is wrong. Psychopaths can know that hurting people is bad but they don't care. You seem to be making the argument that Socrates made that no one knowingly does evil. I disagree with that strongly because there are many evil things that I could do that are evil. I'm not incapable of doing those things just because I know they are evil. Just because I don't do those things doesn't mean I can't.

In my opinion, they don't intuitively know that hurting people is bad. They only tentatively understand or accept (due to what they're told by society and such) that hurting people is bad. Big difference.

There's even been more recent scientific evidence that it may be the case that it's untrue that psychopaths don't have empathy, and in fact it looks like they have some sort of "empathy switch" where they can turn their empathy on and off as they please. Which would explain why they can often come across as empathetic so easily. They have no conscience, or no compassion, but not necessarily no empathy and they can make themselves feel what others are feeling to blend in, and then they can switch it back off again, murder someone for fun, bury the body and just continue with their life as if nothing happened, without a care in the world.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is true. What study/studies are you referring to? Are they conclusive enough (in quantity and quality and consensus) to be really good scientific evidence?

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok? If it's illegal, they ought to "have qualms about it." Unless of course, they don't have qualms about going to prison for life, which is exactly what should happen to people like Manson. Whether or not they think they'll get caught is irrelevant.

Remember, this was your response I originally responded to:

Psychopathy and narcissistic peraonality disorder would be my guess. But nothing severe enough that he couldn't understand that what he was doing was wrong and be deemed innocent.

Do you concede now that understanding that something is wrong and being made aware by society that something is deemed wrong are not the same thing? In the latter case, you're told by others something is wrong, but you may or may not get what's so bad about it. In such case, I do think there is a major deficiency then in moral reasoning.

For all intents and purposes, not at all. If you know that society deems something as wrong, then you understamd that it is wrong. That understanding may not come from you internally, but you still know its wrong, and in the law, that's what matters.

And again, we both agree that Manson's sentence of life in prison was appropriate, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. If you think he was innocent for reason of insanity, then I cant imagine why you'd think it's fair to put an innocent man in prison for life instead of taking him to a hospital.

[The Industrial Atheist]

Even just the first one is a serious mental illness. Does that make him less culpable? An interesting idea to explore.

Well, the presence of ASPD kind of negates the possibility that Charlie could recover from whatever fucked up his mind enough to make him the lunatic we all know and love in any meaningful way.

To try to figure out whether he knew at the time it was wrong could be very complex. Usually when schizophrenics commit murder(and usually when they commit crimes it's crazy but petty crimes) it's because they have delusions that they or someone else is in danger.
They think it's more or less self defense.

Apparently, Manson had delusions of a race war.
The question is, did he not see it as wrong in every single case?

It's a weird thought exercise whether they were collateral damage in his mind.

Tbh I haven't studied up on him that much.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Batten down the hatches, shipmates! Rumor has it that Chuck was an "evolutionist". We know how this will play out in the church fringes.

---

Apparently, he was formally diagnosed with Schizophrenia, Paranoid Delusional Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and likely others.

I used to volunteer at a half-way house for veterans who were drug offenders looking for parole. One night a week I was the "awake guy" for them to talk to, and to keep tabs on them. I was also supposed to report anything of note to the daytime staff. 

One night I spent hours with a guy who explained how the world worked and how he intended to make "corrections" when he got paroled. After listening to this I left a note for the staff.

"This guy should not be released, EVER."

[Rev. Rye]

Well, the presence of ASPD kind of negates the possibility that Charlie could recover from whatever fucked up his mind enough to make him the lunatic we all know and love in any meaningful way.

To try to figure out whether he knew at the time it was wrong could be very complex. Usually when schizophrenics commit murder(and usually when they commit crimes it's crazy but petty crimes) it's because they have delusions that they or someone else is in danger.
They think it's more or less self defense.

Apparently, Manson had delusions of a race war.
The question is, did he not see it as wrong in every single case?

It's a weird thought exercise whether they were collateral damage in his mind.

Tbh I haven't studied up on him that much.

You know, I can remember a scene from Anatomy of a Murder, where Orson Bean plays a psychiatrist who comes up to the bench during a murder trial
to explain that the defendant committed the murder under an "irresistible impulse." When the prosecutor asks if the defendant would have known right from wrong in that instance, he can only say ".. it would not have made any difference whether he knew right from wrong". Charlie didn't act on an irresistible impulse, but literally everything I've read about Manson (and it's been quite a lot) would suggest that statement is as good an answer as any about the state of Charlie's mind.

[The Industrial Atheist]

To try to figure out whether he knew at the time it was wrong could be very complex. Usually when schizophrenics commit murder(and usually when they commit crimes it's crazy but petty crimes) it's because they have delusions that they or someone else is in danger.
They think it's more or less self defense.

Apparently, Manson had delusions of a race war.
The question is, did he not see it as wrong in every single case?

It's a weird thought exercise whether they were collateral damage in his mind.

Tbh I haven't studied up on him that much.

You know, I can remember a scene from Anatomy of a Murder, where Orson Bean plays a psychiatrist who comes up to the bench during a murder trial
to explain that the defendant committed the murder under an "irresistible impulse." When the prosecutor asks if the defendant would have known right from wrong in that instance, he can only say ".. it would not have made any difference whether he knew right from wrong". Charlie didn't act on an irresistible impulse, but literally everything I've read about Manson (and it's been quite a lot) would suggest that statement is as good an answer as any about the state of Charlie's mind.

So was he a sociopath too? I mean it's hard to imagine him not being one, considering all the messed up things he's done. I know a little about the circumstances of his life and it was pretty messed up.