Arguments for God in Quran.

[The Grand Nudger]

....there's more than just one book in the world, lol.....but, the fun thing about moral facts is that they don't need to be written anywhere.  Being written isn't how something is made a fact.  


Same way I perceive anything, same way you perceive anything.

Both these answers are very wrong. I will let you assess why.

For number 2, it's really not the same as any perception. For example, it's not the same as how you see the color brown. And it's not the same how you read a sentence and derive it's meaning.

As for 1, it's written somewhere, so again, is it by genetics in your brain or what?

Don't just answer playfully. Really think about it.

Your 2 contradicts your 1.

Because everything you perceive is somewhere, it exists somewhere, even what you imagine exists in your head.

But in 1, you are stating you perceive moral facts which exist no where.


It's no wonder you don't see the moral argument for what it is.   You have inconsistency, in your understanding of morality.

It exists no where yet you believed it absolutely. At the very least, you would state like Hammy that they exist in your brain and you are your brain, and hence you guide yourself, but we saw how that was a paradox by definition of guidance and morality. 

It becomes self-deciding as opposed to recognition.

It looks like it was the disagreement.....

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-but hey, the past is the past even if it was just a couple of posts ago.  Can we state, unequivocally..going forward..that you don;t have any objection to moral realism whatsoever?  That you also think there are moral facts, and that if we get those facts right, a moral statement would be true?

[robvalue]

Are there some facts written in the Quran?

If so, the fact that there facts in the Quran must "exist somewhere".

And the fact that the fact that there are facts in Quran must exist somewhere, must also exist somewhere.

And so on. This alone produces an infinite number of facts all existing somewhere. Does God have infinite bookcases full of all this stuff?

Nope... facts (about reality) are statements about reality that return "true", via whatever epistemology you are using. Statements can be true without having to have a corresponding literal manifestation somewhere, further to the parts of reality they are already referencing. At least, you'd have a very hard job demonstrating that they must.

What the hell am I talking about? What the hell is this thread?

[Mystic]

Whenever you're ready.

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Are there some facts written in the Quran?

If so, the fact that there facts in the Quran must "exist somewhere".

And the fact that the fact that there are facts in Quran must exist somewhere, must also exist somewhere.

True.

They can't exist no where. There is high pens and high books, spiritual pens and spiritual high books. And at the very heart of it, is God who all this emanates from and there is abstraction.

I don't know people who know anything about programming, don't realize the abstract nature of humans and love and goodness, and it's sacred language, and that there is layers and layers of abstraction.

This is whole level of moral argument at higher plane understanding that the Quran does get into. But we aren't at that stage.

It's a manifest way to perceive there is a programmer and throws everything out the window about there not being a designer.

But let him answer the question. If he wants to say no where like you, it's up to him.

Let him actually state it, instead of running scared like a little boy from a Lion.

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 At least, you'd have a very hard job demonstrating that they must.

We'll see how hard it is. Let him state it 1st, what his stance is.

[The Grand Nudger]

For a guy who incessantly babbles about guidance and needing a guide..you don't appear to value guidance very much, Mystic. You've already heard my stance. You disagreed, then agreed, and now you're shitting the bed.

[Mystic]

For a guy who incessantly babbles about guidance and needing a guide..you don't appear to value guidance very much, Mystic.

Running away like a  s c a r e d  l i t t le  b o y.

[The Grand Nudger]

Right, you're not unhinged at all.  It seems like those two sentences might have just threatened your belief structure.  This is the behavior of a person feeling pressure that they can;t relieve.  

Here, let me calm your mind.  Moral realism is god belief nuetral.  You're allowed to agree with me..you won't roast in muslim hell or whatever the fuck it is.  Moral realism being true doesn;t mean that your silly god doesn't exist..or anything like that.  As I've said many times, my position is equally open to believers. It;s deleterious to your argument..sure, but your argument doesn;t need to be true for a god to exist, either.

Feel better, are you able to proceed now?

[Mystic]

Robvalue, you want to take his place and continue, since you actually answered the question?

[LadyForCamus]

This is beyond ridiculous, MK. I’m still waiting for you to defend your indefensible position that humans can’t care about each other without a god telling them to.

[Mystic]

This is beyond ridiculous, MK.  I’m still waiting for you to defend your indefensible position that humans can’t care about each other without a god telling them to.

And you will wait forever, if you aren't going to let me walk you there. You guys demand proofs, but you have to give the tools and ears, to make my perception.

I can re-write everything in a long post. But we know you guys have short attention spans and will wonder about every premise, no matter how clear it flows, and how manifest they all are.

So I am trying. I'm trying honey, I'm trying. 

[The Grand Nudger]

You must realize that being angry with us for your own failure is pointless?