Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 15, 2024, 7:17 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Arguments for God in Quran.
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
(April 3, 2018 at 6:47 am)MysticKnight Wrote:
(April 3, 2018 at 6:43 am)Khemikal Wrote: ....there's more than just one book in the world, lol.....but, the fun thing about moral facts is that they don't need to be written anywhere.  Being written isn't how something is made a fact.  


Same way I perceive anything, same way you perceive anything.

Both these answers are very wrong. I will let you assess why.

For number 2, it's really not the same as any perception. For example, it's not the same as how you see the color brown. And it's not the same how you read a sentence and derive it's meaning.

As for 1, it's written somewhere, so again, is it by genetics in your brain or what?

Don't just answer playfully. Really think about it.

Your 2 contradicts your 1.

Because everything you perceive is somewhere, it exists somewhere, even what you imagine exists in your head.

But in 1, you are stating you perceive moral facts which exist no where.


It's no wonder you don't see the moral argument for what it is.   You have inconsistency, in your understanding of morality.

It exists no where yet you believed it absolutely. At the very least, you would state like Hammy that they exist in your brain and you are your brain, and hence you guide yourself, but we saw how that was a paradox by definition of guidance and morality. 

It becomes self-deciding as opposed to recognition.

It looks like it was the disagreement.....

-but hey, the past is the past even if it was just a couple of posts ago.  Can we state, unequivocally..going forward..that you don;t have any objection to moral realism whatsoever?  That you also think there are moral facts, and that if we get those facts right, a moral statement would be true?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
Are there some facts written in the Quran?

If so, the fact that there facts in the Quran must "exist somewhere".

And the fact that the fact that there are facts in Quran must exist somewhere, must also exist somewhere.

And so on. This alone produces an infinite number of facts all existing somewhere. Does God have infinite bookcases full of all this stuff?

Nope... facts (about reality) are statements about reality that return "true", via whatever epistemology you are using. Statements can be true without having to have a corresponding literal manifestation somewhere, further to the parts of reality they are already referencing. At least, you'd have a very hard job demonstrating that they must.

What the hell am I talking about? What the hell is this thread?
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
Whenever you're ready.

(April 3, 2018 at 7:34 am)robvalue Wrote: Are there some facts written in the Quran?

If so, the fact that there facts in the Quran must "exist somewhere".

And the fact that the fact that there are facts in Quran must exist somewhere, must also exist somewhere.
True.

They can't exist no where. There is high pens and high books, spiritual pens and spiritual high books. And at the very heart of it, is God who all this emanates from and there is abstraction.

I don't know people who know anything about programming, don't realize the abstract nature of humans and love and goodness, and it's sacred language, and that there is layers and layers of abstraction.

This is whole level of moral argument at higher plane understanding that the Quran does get into. But we aren't at that stage.

It's a manifest way to perceive there is a programmer and throws everything out the window about there not being a designer.

But let him answer the question. If he wants to say no where like you, it's up to him.

Let him actually state it, instead of running scared like a little boy from a Lion.

(April 3, 2018 at 7:34 am)robvalue Wrote:  At least, you'd have a very hard job demonstrating that they must.

We'll see how hard it is. Let him state it 1st, what his stance is.
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
For a guy who incessantly babbles about guidance and needing a guide..you don't appear to value guidance very much, Mystic. You've already heard my stance. You disagreed, then agreed, and now you're shitting the bed.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
(April 3, 2018 at 7:41 am)Khemikal Wrote: For a guy who incessantly babbles about guidance and needing a guide..you don't appear to value guidance very much, Mystic.

Running away like a  s c a r e d  l i t t le  b o y.
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
Right, you're not unhinged at all.  It seems like those two sentences might have just threatened your belief structure.  This is the behavior of a person feeling pressure that they can;t relieve.  

Here, let me calm your mind.  Moral realism is god belief nuetral.  You're allowed to agree with me..you won't roast in muslim hell or whatever the fuck it is.  Moral realism being true doesn;t mean that your silly god doesn't exist..or anything like that.  As I've said many times, my position is equally open to believers. It;s deleterious to your argument..sure, but your argument doesn;t need to be true for a god to exist, either.

Feel better, are you able to proceed now?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
Robvalue, you want to take his place and continue, since you actually answered the question?
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
This is beyond ridiculous, MK. I’m still waiting for you to defend your indefensible position that humans can’t care about each other without a god telling them to.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
(April 3, 2018 at 7:52 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: This is beyond ridiculous, MK.  I’m still waiting for you to defend your indefensible position that humans can’t care about each other without a god telling them to.

And you will wait forever, if you aren't going to let me walk you there. You guys demand proofs, but you have to give the tools and ears, to make my perception.

I can re-write everything in a long post. But we know you guys have short attention spans and will wonder about every premise, no matter how clear it flows, and how manifest they all are.

So I am trying. I'm trying honey, I'm trying.  Heart
Reply
RE: Arguments for God in Quran.
You must realize that being angry with us for your own failure is pointless?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Does the Quran support Theocracy? Leonardo17 91 7757 July 7, 2024 at 11:22 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  New Controversies around the Desecration of the Quran Leonardo17 100 12384 August 20, 2023 at 12:10 pm
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Quran and Hadiths annatar 34 21651 October 11, 2022 at 5:14 pm
Last Post: arewethereyet
  "Nas" is probably my favorite arabic word in the Quran Woah0 22 2043 August 22, 2022 at 3:19 pm
Last Post: Aegon
  [Quranic reflection]: The Big Bang theory in the Quran. WinterHold 62 6271 June 14, 2022 at 1:21 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  How I'd Reveal the Quran To Humanity ReptilianPeon 23 3652 May 11, 2022 at 9:22 pm
Last Post: Cavalry
  2-big bang theory in the Quran mo3taz3nbar 108 52231 April 3, 2022 at 12:09 pm
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  [Quranic Reflection]: Quran vs Hadith- why the Hadith is false WinterHold 176 17709 January 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  [Quranic Reflection]: On reading the Quran.. WinterHold 1 996 July 24, 2021 at 5:23 pm
Last Post: onlinebiker
  [Quranic Reflection]: moon absorbed by the sun in the Quran: far future. WinterHold 253 23235 December 18, 2020 at 9:25 pm
Last Post: polymath257



Users browsing this thread: 46 Guest(s)