Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 18, 2024, 4:21 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  


Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  


Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

I don't know about a theological message, but it is reporting a miracle by Jesus.  That people saw the sign, and believed that he was God.   Jesus often pointed people to the signs and what he had done, what they had seen.

Quote:John 5:36
But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I dotestify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.”
John 10:37–38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Acts 1:2–3
… until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/jes...ase-maker/
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 10:58 am)Minimalist Wrote:
(July 10, 2018 at 1:10 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: A silence may raise questions, or cause one to take notice, and look for a more substantial case. However, unless you can make a valid case for the argument from silence, you can’t just make things up, and insert them into the silence. It can be done, but the argument from silence (legitimate) isn’t an easy case to make.

There is no contemporary evidence that any of your horseshit is true.  Since it is YOUR HORSESHIT you bear the burden of proof.  Feel free to call us if you find something, in the meanwhile go blow your apologetics out your ass.

Once again we see RR expounding the Great Xtian Paradox:  "Jesus was so fucking dangerous and important that the authorities had no choice but to break every rule in their own fucking book to deal with him while, AT THE VERY SAME TIME, he was so fucking insignificant that no one in the first century wrote a fucking word about him.

Make up your fucking minds, assholes.

Jesus' sentencing has always been unique. But this is the first place I'm hearing an argument that a Roman prefect would not do what Pilate is depicted doing in the Gospel accounts. Can you elaborate on this a bit?

(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  


Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 4:45 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(July 12, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Let;s take a speific example.  The feeding of the multitudes.  I'll quote the texts below.  I;ve arranged them in chronological order.  


Now...lay aside the mundane details of the story for a moment.  What is it about?  What is the theological message of the story?  Is that message important?  

I don't know about a theological message, but it is reporting a miracle by Jesus.  That people saw the sign, and believed that he was God.   Jesus often pointed people to the signs and what he had done, what they had seen.

Quote:John 5:36
But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I dotestify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:25
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.”
John 10:37–38
If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Acts 1:2–3
… until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2017/jes...ase-maker/

.......................................... Dodgy 

Apparently, I have the gift of prophecy. 
Quote:You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
Bear in mind, while we both agree there is a clear theological message there, we part ways beyond that point to our conclusions. In other words I do not take that as proof of fabrication of a story, but rather a very specific lesson and example in something I believe to have actually taken place that I should take heed of in my own faith as such situations might apply today.
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the narrative thrust in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Khemikal Wrote: .......................................... Dodgy 

Apparently, I have the gift of prophecy. 
Quote:You have a compelling need to exclaim "its twoo, it;s twoo, it;s twoo" in every possible variation of the phrase....and that means that you'll never actually get around to discussing the mythicist position. That the character of christ found in the NT was constructed specifically as a vehicle for theology.
I wouldn't consider that highly theological (at least not in the way I think you are using it).  But it could be considered a part of systematic theology in the study of the text, and tying common things together.

Because there is some significance to the event doesn't mean that it is a myth (not even close).   The signing of the declaration of the independence had a lot of significance. Do you think that act is a myth?
I find that it is often the significant things that get recorded, although the gospels also contain a lot of little details that may not have a large overall importance.   I had posted a while ago, about a book on un-designed coincidences.  Where insignificant things or things that left a question in one account where explained or made more sense when combined with another.

Are you going to answer the question of "how you know that", or is this just going to be all chest thumping and you proclaiming what you imagine I'll say;   to dodge the question.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 5:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: The meaning of the numbers have been lost to our knowledge, but both feedings are very important theologically because if we go on reading, we will find out that after both feedings the disciples went out with Jesus on the Sea of Galilee, and eventually they would fear of starving for lack of food. So already their faith wavered.

Good thing you;re here, lol!

We don;t have to go on reading to see the importance of the stories.  Firstly, it echoes earlier narratives ( exodus 16, 2 kings, psalm 132).....many pages of ink could be spilled and have been spilled on this one, but it reminds us that god is not finite.  He can provide in abundance, in excess of our expectations or resources.  Superficially, food...but perhaps more deeply n overabundance of spiritual sustenance.  The crowds gathered weren;t even believers.  They were there for healings, not to worship god.  

I do think it;s amusing, in the narrative (pursuant to your comment about faith above) that all four narratives show that the disciples..for some reason...doubted the miracle man even though they;d seen him perform mirales before and were..in effect, at an all day miracle road show even in the story.  The chorus stops and says "but how?".

The numbers..if you;re referring to 5k..might be incidental (it;s just alot of people...a miraculous number!).  It wouldn;t have been a full accounting even if it were true..women and children weren;t counted..but the gospel writer most empathetic to women and children generally does see fit to include their mention..at least.  John goes so far as to have the bread offered by a little boy.  More on that in a minute.

The number of broken pieces in the basket, reported by all four, however, has not been lost to us.  Each narrative has the disciples gathering 12 baskets full of broken pieces.  Alluding to the notion that the apostles will gather the twelve broken tribes.  Speaking of the apostles, jesus doesn;t distribute this food himself, or wiggle his nose and suddenly everyone has food or doesn;t need it.  He hands it to them to distribute.  What they have comes from god, and they can only give what they get.  

Now back to those details...both how they agree and how they differ.  I arranged them chronologically.  Mark comes first, then mathew, then luke, then john.  Mathew and lukle were largely based on mark..john does his own thing..and it shows.  Mark and matthew both say that there were already crows gathered when jesus retired.  Luke has him welcoming people (luke was a softy).  John has godman going right up the motherfucking mountain, lol!

Then, ofc, John has a bit extra that conforms to his unique style.  A pronouncement from the people that he is definitely the messiah..and how they were all going to make him king..by force.  

So...regarding the theological oimportance of the bits above...are the minor disparities between accounts all that important?  Is this a vehicle to recount the mundane details..or the message of god?  Can we notice how each author alters the central character in order to satisfy what we have determined to be their unique proclivities?

My conclusion™ btw..is the conclusion of christian scholarship. That this is a proficient and well polished parable. I;m sure we don;t disagree there. You may believe its twoo, twoo, twoo like our unfortunate friend RR, but that;s irrelevant to me.

We can totally notice this, and that's ok. I think of it like a theological equivalent to 'poetic liscence'. Four different theological imprints from four memories (passed down from the disciples) of the same events. That is how I see it at least.
Reply
RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
(July 12, 2018 at 5:15 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I am answering the question..in detail.  Would you like to participate now?  Do you think you can stuff your cold case shit long enough to appreciate the work of the authors of your own precious stories, lol?
He will cling to his Cop till the end because it's all he's got and what he's got is unimpressive to say the least
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Other burning bush Fake Messiah 12 2048 May 13, 2021 at 8:58 am
Last Post: onlinebiker
  And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. vorlon13 14 3431 August 1, 2017 at 2:54 am
Last Post: ignoramus
  The other problems with Noahs ark dyresand 27 5799 April 7, 2017 at 7:40 pm
Last Post: TheoneandonlytrueGod
  Christian Hell vs. Other Hells? TrueChristian 17 5378 January 13, 2016 at 12:59 am
Last Post: green.joel2
  Why Christians can't respect other's opinion? rado84 83 17062 July 15, 2015 at 3:40 am
Last Post: Longhorn
  life on other planets drfuzzy 26 6503 July 6, 2015 at 6:33 pm
Last Post: Iroscato
  In Christianity, Does Jesus' Soul Have Anything To Do With Why Jesus Is God? JesusIsGod7 18 7821 October 7, 2014 at 12:58 pm
Last Post: JesusHChrist
  Is there any core feature of christianity not found in other religions Lemonvariable72 54 21498 March 14, 2014 at 5:01 pm
Last Post: Chad32
  Why are other civilizations ignored in the Bible? catman 407 142780 March 9, 2014 at 4:36 am
Last Post: catman
  What makes the Christian God different from thr thousands of other Gods out there? bluemonday 66 13963 March 8, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Last Post: Rampant.A.I.



Users browsing this thread: 4 Guest(s)