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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 10:56 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 11:18 am by Mister Agenda.)
(July 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that once you are making a claim, you can then fall back on skepticism. At least not without retracting the claim. Even as supporting evidence, it isn't that strong, when you start asking (looking at) who and where you think should have wrote otherwise.
Don't ever explain why you're skeptical, then you can't be skeptical anymore! Skepticism is only valid if you don't give reasons for it!
I have to say, JairCrawford, to me, has been like a breath of fresh air for being a theist notable for her courtesy and reasonableness.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 11:45 am
(July 13, 2018 at 10:56 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: (July 12, 2018 at 12:45 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that once you are making a claim, you can then fall back on skepticism. At least not without retracting the claim. Even as supporting evidence, it isn't that strong, when you start asking (looking at) who and where you think should have wrote otherwise.
Don't ever explain why you're skeptical, then you can't be skeptical anymore! Skepticism is only valid if you don't give reasons for it!
I have to say, JairCrawford, to me, has been like a breath of fresh air for being a theist notable for her courtesy and reasonableness.
I think that you can give reason for being skeptical, or for why the evidence is not sufficient. There where claims being made, that go beyond being skeptical.
And I agree, Jair has a lot of patience and the spirit of a moderator. I wish I could be more like that.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 11:47 am
So do we.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 11:57 am
Quote:I think that you can give reason for being skeptical, or for why the evidence is not sufficient. There where claims being made, that go beyond being skeptical.
Yeah that's bullshit
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 5:54 pm
(July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: (July 12, 2018 at 10:58 am)Minimalist Wrote: There is no contemporary evidence that any of your horseshit is true. Since it is YOUR HORSESHIT you bear the burden of proof. Feel free to call us if you find something, in the meanwhile go blow your apologetics out your ass.
Once again we see RR expounding the Great Xtian Paradox: "Jesus was so fucking dangerous and important that the authorities had no choice but to break every rule in their own fucking book to deal with him while, AT THE VERY SAME TIME, he was so fucking insignificant that no one in the first century wrote a fucking word about him.
Make up your fucking minds, assholes.
Jesus' sentencing has always been unique. But this is the first place I'm hearing an argument that a Roman prefect would not do what Pilate is depicted doing in the Gospel accounts. Can you elaborate on this a bit?
It's simple really. It would be very unusual for a Roman official to so visibly step on the toes of local officials in a client state of the empire, especially when (if you accept the bible account) Jesus was one of the jewish preachers least likely to upset the Roman applecart in the area.
One thing Rome very successfully did was to allow their subjects at the periphery have a sense of independence and self-determination, when all it was was an illusion.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 6:30 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 6:30 pm by Succubus.)
(July 13, 2018 at 5:54 pm)Wololo Wrote: (July 12, 2018 at 4:46 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: Jesus' sentencing has always been unique. But this is the first place I'm hearing an argument that a Roman prefect would not do what Pilate is depicted doing in the Gospel accounts. Can you elaborate on this a bit?
It's simple really. It would be very unusual for a Roman official to so visibly step on the toes of local officials in a client state of the empire, especially when (if you accept the bible account) Jesus was one of the jewish preachers least likely to upset the Roman applecart in the area.
One thing Rome very successfully did was to allow their subjects at the periphery have a sense of independence and self-determination, when all it was was an illusion.
Unless of course Jesus crime was insurrection then the Romans would have killed him on the spot. If you're living in Roman occupied territory and you have a large crowd following you around then your countdown to the beyond will be in single figures. If his crime was blasphemy then why would Pilate give any sort of a fuck?
The sermon on the mount, the preaching on the shore of lake Galilee, the triumphant entry into Jerusalem...
There is no fucking way the Romans would have allowed this, certainly not under Pilate who was a brutal bastard, even his own generals wrote to Tiberius about his over the top methods of control.
Christianity; the greatest story ever sold.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 7:25 pm
Quote:Jesus' sentencing has always been unique. But this is the first place I'm hearing an argument that a Roman prefect would not do what Pilate is depicted doing in the Gospel accounts. Can you elaborate on this a bit?
Elaborate on what? Crucifixion was a punishment reserved for slaves or rebels. According to those so-called gospels jesus was neither. Leaving aside the fact that the gospels portray Pilate as a wimp who wanted to let the godboy go whereas the other historical sources (Josephus and Philo) indicate he was a murdering thug what more is there to say?
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 13, 2018 at 7:31 pm
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2018 at 7:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Since we;re on the subject.....what of that -other- story in all four books? Does it bear the hallmarks of legendary embellishment, or mythological construct?
Does anyone corroborate the narrative? No.
Is it full to overfilling on theological flourish? Yes.
More like the parable of the loaves and the fishes than the story of paul bunyan, it would seem.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 14, 2018 at 7:15 pm
(July 13, 2018 at 12:09 am)Succubus Wrote: (July 12, 2018 at 5:04 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: Bear in mind, while we both agree there is a clear theological message there,
What is this 'theological message' of which you speak? And on whose authority do theologians speak?
Quote:we part ways beyond that point to our conclusions.
What and or whose conclusions?
Quote:In other words I do not take that as proof of fabrication of a story, but rather a very specific lesson and example in something I believe to have actually taken place that I should take heed of in my own faith as such situations might apply today.
Is this a not so subtle rewording of 'you can't disprove it therefore it must be true?'
(July 12, 2018 at 5:36 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Or it could be totally made up by non witnesses based itself on stories that someone made up and that's why the details don't match.
Bingo! We have a winner.
The theological message, beyond the deeper numerological meanings, is a lesson of faith to put it simply.
That post you quoted was more a statement of my faith than an argument.
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RE: Josephus and other contemporaries on Jesus
July 14, 2018 at 7:23 pm
Quote:The theological message, beyond the deeper numerological meanings, is a lesson of faith to put it simply.
Um, if you're trying to say it didn't really happen we already know that.
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