Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[bennyboy]

Then you've wasted both of our time.  If you are a racist and you know that you are a racist..neither the pc left nor any sjw is smearing you with guilt by association.  Similarly, I suspect that you've known all along that you've been blurting out racist shit and that you got it from racists.  

You really are a fucking racist...and no, Benny, regardless of whether it makes you feel better about your own racism, we aren't all racists, like you.  

Stop trying to normalize your racism, while vehemently denying that you are normalizing racism...... lol.....?

?

You seem to be responding like I just admitted to being a witch.  I don't think you're hearing this like I'm saying it. I'm guessing that "racist" carries a lot of automatic associations that I don't ascribe to it-- issues about fair treatment, threats to well-being, and so on. I'd hope you would know that I have no interest in keeping black people down, or in endorsing physical threats or deliberately oppressive policies.

I didn't say I'm a white supremacist, or that I place different value on people of different race.  I'm saying that ALL people are racist, if they hold ideas that there are meaningful differences among races.  I think it's an instinctive fact; and as usual, I am prepared to meet your fart-sniffing outrage with actual facts.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566511/

Now, many of us have experiences or philosophical ideas through which we overcome that instinctive preference for like-self, and that instinctive distrust of not-like-self.


And MY kind of racism isn't that at all (I think).  I believe that there are in fact probably meaningful differences among races.  Is suspect black people are more athletic, white people more belligerent, and Asian people more intelligent.  But overall, I don't value one over the other.  And I certainly don't believe that there aren't brilliant black people, super-athletic Asian people, or white people who don't have an ingrained desire to take shit over.

But I think pretending that because we see every individual as MORALLY equivalent, we must also insist that there couldn't possibly be meaningful differences in other regards, does a disservice both to truth and to the individuals involved.

[The Grand Nudger]

A racist is a racist Benny, "your kind of racism" is not novel, unique, or redeeming.  Whatever fears you have attendant to the white anxiety you feel are your own business..and you deserve them..my heart isn't exactly going to bleed for you on account of it.

I'm more disappointed that you were pointlessly dishonest and wasted my time, than by the fact that you're a racist.  After all, I've made my peace with racists on their terms..the man I love most in the world and my model for life is an open white supremacist..after all.

You're just a slimy piece of shit...and..no..again, you may be racist, but that doesn't mean we all are, so console yourself some other way.

[bennyboy]

A racist is a racist Benny, "your kind of racism" is not novel, unique, or redeeming.  Whatever fears you have attendant to the white anxiety you feel are your own business..and you deserve them..my heart isn't exactly going to bleed for you on account of it.

I'm more disappointed that you were pointlessly dishonest and wasted my time, than by the fact that you're a racist.  After all, I've made my peace with racists on their terms..the man I love most in the world and my model for life is an open white supremacist..after all.

You're just a slimy piece of shit...and..no..again, you may be racist, but that doesn't mean we all are, so console yourself some other way.

Tell me what you REALLY think of me.  Pretty sure there's no hidden smiley there, is there?

I think you not English good, dude.  I get that you're triggered right now, and that this makes it hard for you to get points.

"A racist is a racist."  So. . . a baby who shows preference for same-race faces at 3 months is the same as David Duke, huh?  Seems legit.  I suppose a black guy who shouts racial epithets is the same as the white cop who guns him down, right?  You know-- cuz a "racist is a racist."

As for you not being racist-- you're so full of shit, dude.  You just happen to think that you're the right kind of racist, which in your twisted semantic isn't even racism at all. Have I EVER said that racism in general, and racism in the States toward black people in particular, isn't important, or isn't a problem?  No.  You are triggered because I dare use words you think are unspeakable, and I dare examine claims which you think must be accepted as brute fact, or disregarded as lies.  I'm trying to get to the actual facts, and instead of countering with better facts, or explaining why the facts I've found are false, you just dig in and start raging.

Now, if you can get away from the fart-sniffing for just a minute, we could discuss ways in which racism can be overcome-- through exposure, through finding common ground, through extension of opportunity, and so on.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that you wasted my time, and squandered my respect for you.  Tell me you didn't. Lie to yourself....hell, lie to me, again.... why not..... we're only 60 pages in.

[Shell B]

Haha, you spent your time of your own volition and didn’t respect him to begin with. This thread should’ve been split. Too late now.

[bennyboy]

I think that you wasted my time, and squandered my respect for you.  Tell me you didn't.  Lie to yourself....hell, lie to me, again.... why not..... we're only 60 pages in.

I know exactly what's going on here.  Though I've expressed in all regards a general left political position, and attempted to examine actual solutions to real human problems, you've reduced it all down to trigger words and insults.

What's the actual problem, here?  That I don't shy away from the epithets you keep flinging at me?  That I continue to look for and present actual facts even when they don't uphold the Truth™?  Is it that you are essentially telling me "Stop struggling" and that you are annoyed that I keep standing up for my positions?

See, I think people like you are far more dangerous than people like me.  When you surrender intellect to instinct, then you are no better than the chimps that tear apart neighboring troupes.  And if this behavior, this willingness to ignore actual truth, and make Truth™ a sacred sword of justice, is allowed to spread, then we WILL in fact end up with a real loss of liberty, and of any subsequent ability for ANYONE to stand up for themselves.

[EgoDeath]

It's often something that happens on the extreme ends of the political spectrum. You can be the most liberal person in the world but if you suggest that there are differences in IQ among different races you can be labeled a nazi or bigot, regardless of how exactly those differences in IQ come about.

Extreme progressives tend to push other liberals toward the center with this type of agree-with-me-on-everything-or-you're-the-opposition type of thinking. You see it happen on the right too with people like Tomi Lahren (sp?) being ostracized for admitting she's pro-choice.

[robvalue]

I would hope that most people are able to rationally consider each issue on its own merits, rather than committing wholesale to one extreme "label" or another. It almost becomes religious at that point.

I expect that far fewer people would hold all of these "expected" positions than people wishing to demonise them would make out.

[bennyboy]

To be honest, I expected to find that IQ differences were within the statistical margin, and that when controlled for economic background or other social issues (single parenthood etc.), they'd disappear completely.  I was perfectly read to talk about how clearly black people were oppressed with regard to salary and job opportunities, and how to force white people to stop that oppression.  I was kind of moving in that direction when google reared its ugly head.

The results I found are a worst case scenario for me.  The strong correlation between IQ and income might actually BE the main reason for differential income.  But even if it's not, it creates one hell of a confounding variable.  Poverty, you can potentially solve.  Quality of education, ditto.  But IQ?  The options are truly grim: 1) we find a way to remove IQ from the income curve-- i.e. establish a true forced outcome (Hello, communism. . . I'm sure you'll work out great this time!); 2) improve the IQ of black people.

With regard to (2), it's shown that while childhood boosts can be gotten by environment, heritability after puberty is at about 75% - 80%.  It's a monster.  So even though we create special programs and so on (and we should, if just for the enrichment of those children's lives), the effect on IQ in adulthood is going to be fairly negligible.  What are we left with?  Eugenics?  I'm quite depressed about it actually-- I literally don't see a practical way out of this situation.

Luckily, there is at least SOME hope for improvement.  I don't know what % of black children are faced with health issues so serious that they will retard development, but:

 Recent studies suggest that family and parenting characteristics are not significant contributors to variation in IQ scores; however, poor prenatal environment, malnutrition and disease can have deleterious effects.

At least there's something we can actually work on. Twin studies and adoption studies are a little bit contradictory, which is actually very good news-- because the normal results are really unambiguously bad.

---

I would hope that most people are able to rationally consider each issue on its own merits, rather than committing wholesale to one extreme "label" or another. It almost becomes religious at that point.

It seems to me, rob, that the PC left is pretty much all about committing wholesale to extreme labels, and that it IS in fact very much akin to religion-- disagreement, even in part, isn't just an academic point for them-- it amounts to heresy.

[EgoDeath]

I would hope that most people are able to rationally consider each issue on its own merits, rather than committing wholesale to one extreme "label" or another. It almost becomes religious at that point.

I expect that far fewer people would hold all of these "expected" positions than people wishing to demonise them would make out.

Yea I'd probably agree. Most people decide on individual issues. But that's the problem with people who get into identity politics and that's why identity politics is dangerous... If you belong to this group, that social class or this race, you have to believe in this, this and that. That gets very screwy and when these people band together they often make themselves appear bigger and more influential than they actually are.

But I agree I think most people tend to fall someone in the middle on either side... as in, left or right but more toward the middle than toward the extreme ends.

To be honest, I expected to find that IQ differences were within the statistical margin, and that when controlled for economic background or other social issues (single parenthood etc.), they'd disappear completely.  I was perfectly read to talk about how clearly black people were oppressed with regard to salary and job opportunities, and how to force white people to stop that oppression.  I was kind of moving in that direction when google reared its ugly head.

The results I found are a worst case scenario for me.  The strong correlation between IQ and income might actually BE the main reason for differential income.  But even if it's not, it creates one hell of a confounding variable.  Poverty, you can potentially solve.  Quality of education, ditto.  But IQ?  The options are truly grim: 1) we find a way to remove IQ from the income curve-- i.e. establish a true forced outcome (Hello, communism. . . I'm sure you'll work out great this time!); 2) improve the IQ of black people.

With regard to (2), it's shown that while childhood boosts can be gotten by environment, heritability after puberty is at about 75% - 80%.  It's a monster.  So even though we create special programs and so on (and we should, if just for the enrichment of those children's lives), the effect on IQ in adulthood is going to be fairly negligible.  What are we left with?  Eugenics?  I'm quite depressed about it actually-- I literally don't see a practical way out of this situation.

Luckily, there is at least SOME hope for improvement.  I don't know what % of black children are faced with health issues so serious that they will retard development, but:

 Recent studies suggest that family and parenting characteristics are not significant contributors to variation in IQ scores; however, poor prenatal environment, malnutrition and disease can have deleterious effects.

At least there's something we can actually work on.  Twin studies and adoption studies are a little bit contradictory, which is actually very good news-- because the normal results are really unambiguously bad.

---

I would hope that most people are able to rationally consider each issue on its own merits, rather than committing wholesale to one extreme "label" or another. It almost becomes religious at that point.

It seems to me, rob, that the PC left is pretty much all about committing wholesale to extreme labels, and that it IS in fact very much akin to religion-- disagreement, even in part, isn't just an academic point for them-- it amounts to heresy.

Yea and all of this information you're posting might but true benny, but to be honest I don't really care. Not being rude! But my point is simply this...

There is sort of a flow of ideas in that each concept can be broken down into smaller concepts.

If the parent concept... let's say, Concept A is that:

There are differences between different races.

Then Concept B will be:

The differences in the races are X, Y and Z.

Concept C:

The differences in the races X, Y and Z, are interestingly enough, less to do with race and more to do with societal factors, genes in specific families, etc. These issues effect different races differently because of the socioeconomic problems that different groups of people face.

Concept D:

There is no reason to see other races as inferior, we are simply dealing with different problems due to a multitude of different factors. Despite these differences, everyone is human and deserves basic kindness and respect.

So...

Concept A --> Concept B --> Concept C --> Concept D

The problem is, many people involved identity politics will ignore the nuance in your idea and simply hear you saying Concept A, that there are differences in the races. Now you're automatically a racist and a nazi.

Some people will argue that this is due to some people not explaining their positions correctly but I find that to be false. Some people get so wrapped up in what they believe that they make it a part of who they are, so any statements they hear contrary to what they already believe will cause an uproar in their mind.

We do need to clearly state why we believe things but these efforts are often futile in the face of people wrapped up in identity politics. The dangers of IP is one thing out of the few that I agree with Peterson on.