Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[The Grand Nudger]

That would make it worse, not better, lol.

[bennyboy]

That would make it worse, not better, lol.

What would make what worse? Use your words.

[Rev. Rye]

That would make it worse, not better, lol.

What would make what worse? Use your words.

Ummm...

As for "casually racist shit," that seems unlikely.  I measure my words carefully, especially in a discussion like this.

The dodgy racial attitudes you've brought up in this thread; if you measure your words carefully, and still managed to come across as racist, that makes it worse than if you were just fucking up. Man, the "previous page" button is a boon to forum technology. It's a shame most people haven't heard about it.

[Rev. Rye]

You know, Bennyboy, I know you likely don't think of yourself as being racist, however, you have expressed some seriously dodgy racist views, and though you may have some black acquaintances, if you want them to become/stay your friends, you might want to do some more scrutinising.

For instance, in an earlier thread, you said:

If a black guy sat on the same sofa as me, I would feel equally as uncomfortable as I would feel when I met any other stranger.

A more carefully worded, less racist version might read: If a black guy I didn't know sat next to me on the sofa, I'd be uncomfortable. If a white guy I didn't know sat next to me on the sofa, I'd also be uncomfortable. If one of the black guys I hired sat next to me on the sofa, I'd probably be a bit more comfortable.

Also, your attitude towards identity politics isn't totally without merit, since I have my own qualms about it, and I've mentioned it before, but I make abundantly clear that I strongly believe the vast majority of the complaints in question are valid, and point out that my biggest problem is that, often times, with many of the most vocal activists, it seems like they're less interested in taking down the oppressive structures of power and more in swapping out who benefits from them. I also make clear that those elements are nowhere near as powerful in American politics as the right might suspect (if they really were, Hilary Clinton wouldn't have gotten as far as she did in the Democratic Party), and that they're, at worst, a nuisance, and that, obviously, they're the lesser of the two evils (the greater being the alt-righters who want to make America into a racist shithole.)

And , if you're really interested in not seeming racist, let go of the whole "race and IQ" thing. I've posted at length on this before, and you might do well to read a bit more on the limitations of the IQ test as a measure of intelligence (the SAT, in particular is far from an ideal measure of IQ), and bear in mind, this is someone who once scored 176 on an IQ test saying they're not perfect. This is a very thorny subject and it can be hard to bring up the subject without making it look like you're telling the black race collectively:




I know Tizh and Khem have been a bit big on the ad-hominem throughout this thread, but they make legitimate points, even if they're unfortunately low on the sort of advice you'll need to seem less racist. It can be very difficult to get people to reach people where this subject is concerned, but I hope I've done some work in getting through to you.

[bennyboy]

You know, Bennyboy, I know you likely don't think of yourself as being racist, however, you have expressed some seriously dodgy racist views, and though you may have some black acquaintances, if you want them to become/stay your friends, you might want to do some more scrutinising.

For instance, in an earlier thread, you said:

If a black guy sat on the same sofa as me, I would feel equally as uncomfortable as I would feel when I met any other stranger.  

A more carefully worded, less racist version might read: If a black guy I didn't know sat next to me on the sofa, I'd be uncomfortable. If a white guy I didn't know sat next to me on the sofa, I'd also be uncomfortable. If one of the black guys I hired sat next to me on the sofa, I'd probably be a bit more comfortable.

First, let me say thank you.  You are making specific points, and I can address them.

With regards to this sentence, I'm saying that strangers make me feel uncomfortable because they are unfamiliar to me, and that it is not due to their race.  Personally, I'm far more to be uncomfortable due to perceived class issues-- if the guy was dangling a Ferrari keychain, for example, or a woman whose handbag could put my kids through college.  I don't particularly dislike those people, but I do feel a pretty strong discomfort when finding myself near them.  Economic insecurity on my part, maybe. . . 

And , if you're really interested in not seeming racist, let go of the whole "race and IQ" thing. I've posted at length on this before, and you might do well to read a bit more on the limitations of the IQ test as a measure of intelligence (the SAT, in particular is far from an ideal measure of IQ), and bear in mind, this is someone who once scored 176 on an IQ test saying they're not perfect. This is a very thorny subject and it can be hard to bring up the subject without making it look like you're telling the black race collectively

I have little interest in seeming anything.  My beliefs are predicated on the truth of the world as I see it, and I will express them as persuasively as I can unless someone can show they are poorly founded. Frankly, I expected someone to come in and show that my numbers were outdated and biased, but nobody has.

And I'm not doing it just to be a dick, or because I have some white anxiety agenda.  It's because I believe that we are predisposed at a genetic level NOT to get along with either other in a large society, and that divisive politics or demographic division feed hostile instincts that eventually lead to a suspension of intellect and a breakdown of the social contract.  Far better than shouting each other down is to collect actual facts, and then plan how to leverage them toward a meaningful goal, or if they are negative, how best to work around them to get as close as we can to an ideal.

I can clearly demonstrate this has been my intent. For example, Khem was arguing in support of minimum wage. I did some quick math, and it became obvious that in poor states like Mississippi, a $15 minimum wage would be a mathematical impossibility-- that would be a fact. So I came up with a scheme-- release prisoners, and add incentives for productivity-- the idea being that they'd have increased self-determination, and the GDP might rise enough to improve standards of living in the state.

Khem's interpretation of all this: I support rich white guys in poor states, I'm calling black people lazy, and so on. But what he hasn't done, other than keep shouting about how racist everyone is, is suggest any kind of plan at all by which black people might actually be brought into a more equal position. "Fucking white oppressors, we have to make them act more fairly!" is a particularly weak plan of action unless you are willing to MAKE people act the way you want.

And in the end, this summarizes my view of PC politics-- it's all about lip service, about posting the right memes to your Twitter account, about thumping your chest and getting "Yeah. . . . fuck YEAH!" from the dumbasses around you-- and it's very little about coming up with solutions to problems that will actually work.

[Rev. Rye]

And I'm not doing it just to be a dick, or because I have some white anxiety agenda.  It's because I believe that we are predisposed at a genetic level NOT to get along with either other in a large society, and that divisive politics or demographic division feed hostile instincts that eventually lead to a suspension of intellect and a breakdown of the social contract.  Far better than shouting each other down is to collect actual facts, and then plan how to leverage them toward a meaningful goal, or if they are negative, how best to work around them to get as close as we can to an ideal.

Ah, the monkeysphere, the basic reason we're pre-wired to be incapable of maintaining relationships with over 150 people at a time. I think the tribalist curse we all share may be a direct result of this, and I suspect the whole idea of racial prejudices could very well have had its roots in the fact that, well, writing off an entire race of people as being barbaric (or bad in some other way) is an easy way of narrowing down the number of potential candidates for the 150 spaces in our monkeyspheres. It may very well have been a good strategy in the days when we lived in little villages with about a hundred people (the Age of Small Villages is not one of my areas of expertise), but now, in the days of globalisation and rampant prejudice making the world a demonstrably worse place, it's something we really need to fix.

I understand your desire to not want to look like anything in particular, but, as you've seen firsthand, racism is a really contentious issue, and it's kind of depressingly hard to talk about, no doubt because people's ideas of what constitute racism are really fucking hard to reconcile (due to issues of what I like to call interpersonal grammar), and the fact that, sadly, people seem more interested in fighting wrongs instead of trying to fix them. It's sure as shit easier to fight someone doing something wrong than it is to set them on the right path, and, at the very least, being more conscious of the way you might look in a discussion will certainly help keep things more civil.

[bennyboy]

+1 for a good post, and one finally with some actual intellectual content worth mulling over.

But it's even worse than that. Tribes establish new tokens of membership-- flags to bear, fashions to emulate, and other tribes which must be held in enmity. That's while you get Hoodlums literally putting each other in the hospital over English soccer games, even though in other regards they might be 100% identical in their beliefs and political positions, and why in the Byzantine empire, gangs of blues and greens would murder each other over a color.

This is the cruelest trick of the human species, in almost all regards-- that no matter how smart we are, our instincts are very often able to enslave our minds. "Just the tip" is a great way for a million generations to coopt us into producing the million-and-first. "I'll run extra hard tomorrow" is a great way to get us to eat fatty foods, even when we didn't intend to. "Those other guys over there are inhuman, and must be conquered but never cooperated with" is a great way for us to select each other out of the gene pool, and maybe to end up with a stronger species-- but it's EXTREMELY unlikely ever to end up with a group of people establishing a happy life worth living for its own sake.

That's the biggest problem I have with PC. It simply won't work. Practices which replace one dogma with another, but don't improve productivity, for example, might mean a redistribution of wealth-- but it will never mean that everyone has enough. The PC left will completely ignore the facts, and therefore demand restitution for this or that group, bigger welfare payments, higher minimum wage, and so on. That's nice, today, but what happens when 300 million people go to the market and discover that there's nothing but an old loaf of bread?

We KNOW what happens. We saw it for the entire second half of the 20th century.

[bennyboy]

Okay, now everyone take this video with a grain of salt.  I just posted it for comedic relief, I'm not pointing any fingers.

This guy also often makes fun of vegetarians, so I get burned too, but I just think he's great!

[The Grand Nudger]

Khem's interpretation of all this: 

Was that you're a know nothing who makes excuses for constantly bitching about white victimization, actually, lol.

You're the one who decided you were racist, member?

I notice that you're pulling the crypo marxist bit, up above. Didn't you tell us that peterson was off his rocker for saying that shit..ooooh, 30 pages or so ago, when you lost that million bucks? Do you now think that not being able to spout off ethnic slurs on TV without repurcussions can only end in with the gulag?

[Rev. Rye]

Actually, I think the million dollar bet was that A) I wasn't randomly browsing Cracked when I discovered this article on Jordan Peterson and instead, just looking for the first bad article I could find about Jordan Peterson, and that B) Cracked is just a website that covers articles about the stupidity of the first Jet Pack and reasons to be worried about Star Wars Episode IX.

I proved him wrong on both counts within a single post, noting that A) I had been with the thread within the first 23 minutes of the OP, B) Just Googling Jordan Peterson's name yielded four articles that are just as, if not more damning, before I even left the first page of results, and C) Cracked actually does have some legitimately thought-provoking articles (I linked to EIGHT in that post.)

Also, about the "randomly browsing Cracked," I realised I did not exactly address this issue. So, just search Keyword:"Cracked" Username: "Rev. Rye." You'll find I actually do read Cracked quite a bit. Not exactly every day, but it shouldn't be too hard to imagine that I'd just stumble upon an article while browsing it.