(September 1, 2018 at 9:00 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Not that bad to who?

Obviously not you.

(September 2, 2018 at 6:28 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 1, 2018 at 8:01 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Yeah, it's almost as if segregation and systematic institutional racism don't provide adequate opportunity for learning the types of skills that IQ tests measure, or something.

We -could- solve it....but then again, black poverty is inevitable so why would we waste our time.  They should stop being lazy and Git Productive - that would fix everything.  I said bale that cotton boy, not hug it.



We could go even further down the rabit hole, though, and point out that even saying "race and iq" is ignorant from the outset..it flew 70 years ago but now we talk about genetics and IQ, and the funny thing about that is that race is kind of silly in context.

. . . still waiting for you to cite that source.

Follow the advice of that smart man.  You found half a citation, how hard can it be for you to find the other half?  

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Quote:You're saying what I said, right up front, when I introduced the demographic numbers on IQ.  I'm perfectly open to evidence that it is lack of educational opportunity that is mainly responsible for IQ differences.

bennyboy, post #612 Wrote:In some metrics, black people at least in the US, clearly ARE inferior-- in average IQ scores for example. Then we have to ask why-- is it because the IQ tests are biased toward white participants? Or because socioeconomic conditions lead to bad education? Or because of differential intelligences (intellectual tasks vs. social skills vs. physical intelligence), and only a narrow range of those being tested?

And then, we have to ask-- EVEN IF there are actual racial differences, should it matter at all with regard to rights of citizenship? I'd certainly argue not.

Yeah, I'm practically just repeating the white supremacist mantra here, hey?  Because those guys always like to open the door to multiple possibilities that would discredit their interpretation of the data?

Seems legit.

Whose fault is it that you knew better but decided to go full scientific racist?  PC leftists?

(September 2, 2018 at 7:35 am)Khemikal Wrote: Whose fault is it that you knew better but decided to go full scientific racist?  PC leftists?

Your consistent attempt at this ad hom straw man is noted, and discarded. I don't accept "fault" for seeking facts, because there's nothing about seeking facts which merits blame.

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(September 2, 2018 at 7:35 am)Khemikal Wrote: Follow the advice of that smart man.  You found half a citation, how hard can it be for you to find the other half?  

. . . still waiting. Either source your facts, or I'll assume they are just farts in the breeze.

If there is a disparity in IQ among the races, it's most likely because of racism. Noting that and trying to correct it is surely a good thing. I've never seen a racist insist that black and white people get treated equitably, which benny appears to be doing. He might be a little too afraid that affirmative action is going to force him to keep on lazy workers (if I'm reading this correctly, which I admit I may not be because it's basically the same page over and over again), but I'm not sure the level of vitriol is warranted. I bet level heads on both sides would find more to agree on than disagree. Identity politics is really bad.

@Benny
Gee, the scientific racism gets the full smart guy treatment, any obvious and easily accessible conterfactual...not so much.

Let wonder lead you to knowledge.

@Shell
It's warranted, though you'd have to have been here from the beginning, lol. You're under the impression he's getting shit for being on the wrong side of politics..but he's not, because he isn't. He's a run of the mill canadian liberal. He also happens to have absorbed the normalizing language of white supremacy..and has been asserting it constantly while defending the same. He's been made aware of this over and over..though I doubt he spent any of his precious time going down the rabbit hole of information he was presented with. To busy looking up the next way be be a racist dirtball and then ask "what's racist about that - nuh uh!"...like a racist dirtball, lol.

That, is odious, that's what he's getting shit for..and it deserves nothing but vitriol. We're both already aware that we agree on the vast majority of everything. Then again, that was what I thought at the start when I fugured he was just an unwitting carrier rather than an active participant....so maybe that's another thing I've been wrong about. But thx, mom.

(September 2, 2018 at 3:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @Benny
Gee, the scientific racism gets the full smart guy treatment, any obvious and easily accessible conterfactual...not so much.

Let wonder lead you to knowledge.

@Shell
It's warranted, though you'd have to have been here from the beginning, lol.  You're under the impression he's getting shit for being on the wrong side of politics..but he's not, because he isn't.  He's a run of the mill canadian liberal.  He also happens to have absorbed the normalizing language of white supremacy..and has been asserting it constantly while defending the same.

That, is odious, that's what he's getting shit for..and it deserves nothing but vitriol.  We're both already aware that we agree on the vast majority of everything.  But thx, mom.  

What do you mean from the beginning? The beginning of this conversation? You do realize I have been? If you mean beginning in the Biblical sense, I've been here longer than you have, which is a weird qualification for geeking out about this guy. I just don't see him "normalizing the language of white supremacy." Pretending there are no differences between races is as weird as pretending one is better than the other. He acknowledges differences between races and the shortcomings of affirmative action (which also has many benefits, obviously). If he's done anything other than that, I haven't seen it. Maybe you could quote it in defense of your "Racist! Racist! You're a racist!" argument.

I wouldn't go back through the entire white victimization master thread for his benefit..and I won't go back through it for yours. You were here, after all.

(September 2, 2018 at 8:55 am)Shell B Wrote: If there is a disparity in IQ among the races, it's most likely because of racism. Noting that and trying to correct it is surely a good thing. I've never seen a racist insist that black and white people get treated equitably, which benny appears to be doing. He might be a little too afraid that affirmative action is going to force him to keep on lazy workers (if I'm reading this correctly, which I admit I may not be because it's basically the same page over and over again), but I'm not sure the level of vitriol is warranted. I bet level heads on both sides would find more to agree on than disagree. Identity politics is really bad.

I'm not in America, so there's no issue with affirmative action at all.  I'm pretty sure I could give being black as a reason for firing someone, and I'd be fine.  I didn't fire anyone, though-- even the race-card pullers without the doctor's notes, or the crazy girl who insisted that people leaving books on her desk (not me, but "someone") were making a racial attack.  Two of them have finished their contracts and gotten their year-end bonus, free plane ticket and all the other perks I give, and one more is finishing very soon.

But we were talking about identity politics, and this is a direct experience I personally had with that issue, so I mentioned it.  That was the beginning of the long demonization of me personally, the constant racist comments toward me, and all the other shit-slinging from Khemikal which really made me think-- here's a guy who clearly identifies as PC Left, and he's literally doing ALL the things that Peterson says we need to fear from left-wing ideologues.  So, it turns out, I developed the idea that this thread matters-- I really wanted to let the whole thing play out and see how bad it is.

In my estimation, it's pretty damned bad.  There's no level of sympathy I can show, or attempt to generate real answers to human problems, that can save me from being branded a white supremacist or called a "slimy piece of shit" once I've threatened-- even by just pulling up public facts-- the dogmatic narrative of the PC left.  

I mean-- I've talked about releasing prisoners with drug charges, about adding financial incentives for those new releases, about adding health and education programs for impoverished children as a way to close the IQ gap (which idea Khemikal actually shot down  because he reckoned that income disparities were due to issues with "networking").  I've also suggested that prisoner tribunals should be done by same-race juries.

These are CLEARLY left-wing positions, and not even moderately so.  So I should assume that it should be pretty obvious that I want to help, right?  Nope.  The simple willingness to consider ideas or even just statistical facts antithetical to the PC Left dogma is treated exactly like religious heresy.

What can I say, I'm a cryptomarxist out to take away your rights, deny your pride, stigimitize you, flip the discriminatory tables..and, ultimately, ofc, eliminate you.

I mean..that or you say causally racist shit.  50/50.

(September 2, 2018 at 3:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @Benny
Gee, the scientific racism gets the full smart guy treatment, any obvious and easily accessible conterfactual...not so much.

Let wonder lead you to knowledge.

I have a better idea.

Let links lead me to whatever the fuck you are talking about.

I've already said I would be very happy to find that the differences in IQ are not highly heritable, because then we'd have really good solutions at our disposal.  So why wouldn't you just show what you've found?  Or why wouldn't you just say, "20% variance dependent on environment matters enough for us to go ahead with those solutions anyway," to which I'd almost certainly agree?

My current assumption is that your data is taken out of context, and that citing a source would make that immediately obvious.  I literally can't imagine any other reason why you wouldn't immediately source your factual claims-- unless you are literally just trolling.

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(September 2, 2018 at 4:23 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What can I say, I'm a cryptomarxist out to take away your rights, deny your pride, stigimitize you, flip the discriminatory tables..and, ultimately, ofc, eliminate you.

I mean..that or you say causally racist shit.  50/50.

I don't know what fucked-up baggage you're carrying, but don't make me carry it for you.  The only thing I've said about you is that you sling a lot of shit, and provide very few arguments that you are prepared to support with real facts.  Oh-- and that despite being a champion against racism, you've made several racist comments toward me right here, in this very thread, and unapologetically so.

As for "casually racist shit," that seems unlikely. I measure my words carefully, especially in a discussion like this.